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Straight or angled scope

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Old Thursday 28th March 2019, 19:09   #51
luckmurph
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Brilliant thanks guys!!
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Old Tuesday 2nd April 2019, 13:17   #52
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Another reason for straight. If you have binoculars mounted on your tripod. You can quick release and mount a straight spotting scope with no adjustments, as you would with a angled spotter
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Old Tuesday 2nd April 2019, 19:42   #53
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Hi,

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Originally Posted by Dd61999 View Post
Another reason for straight. If you have binoculars mounted on your tripod. You can quick release and mount a straight spotting scope with no adjustments, as you would with a angled spotter
Do you mean ergonomical adjustments to be able to view at all, or do you mean sightline adjustments in order to keep the bird in sight?

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Henning
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Old Saturday 6th April 2019, 23:32   #54
Dd61999
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Originally Posted by Hauksen View Post
Hi,



Do you mean ergonomical adjustments to be able to view at all, or do you mean sightline adjustments in order to keep the bird in sight?

Regards,

Henning
Both, which is important for those who understand and practice natural point of aim
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Old Sunday 7th April 2019, 01:39   #55
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Hi,

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Originally Posted by Dd61999 View Post
Both, which is important for those who understand and practice natural point of aim
If your mounting is precise enough to allow repeatable re-mounting, it doesn't matter if you replace the binoculars with a straight or an angled scope because both will drop into the same objective axis alignement as the binoculars. No advantage for the straight scope here.

With regard to the ergonomic alignment ... the geometric displacement between the correct eye positions for using my 8 x 42 binoculars and the straight Nikon ED50 comes down to 65 mm. That's enough to require a re-adjustment of your seating position for relaxed viewing, and with a straight scopes' requirement for precise eye placement, probably of the tripod height as well if you're observing towards the treetops, as the original poster intends to.

As the Nikon ED50 is one of the smallest serious scopes on the market, for about any other straight scope one might use the difference is going to be even larger. I have some experience with a straight Leica Televid 77, and from memory I'd say it easily adds another 100 mm to the length difference.

In short, I wouldn't recommend a straight scope for the reasons you quoted.

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Henning
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Old Sunday 7th April 2019, 11:54   #56
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Hi,



If your mounting is precise enough to allow repeatable re-mounting, it doesn't matter if you replace the binoculars with a straight or an angled scope because both will drop into the same objective axis alignement as the binoculars. No advantage for the straight scope here.

With regard to the ergonomic alignment ... the geometric displacement between the correct eye positions for using my 8 x 42 binoculars and the straight Nikon ED50 comes down to 65 mm. That's enough to require a re-adjustment of your seating position for relaxed viewing, and with a straight scopes' requirement for precise eye placement, probably of the tripod height as well if you're observing towards the treetops, as the original poster intends to.

As the Nikon ED50 is one of the smallest serious scopes on the market, for about any other straight scope one might use the difference is going to be even larger. I have some experience with a straight Leica Televid 77, and from memory I'd say it easily adds another 100 mm to the length difference.

In short, I wouldn't recommend a straight scope for the reasons you quoted.

Regards,

Henning
Natural point of aim has nothing to do with relaxed viewing (although it might result in one but not always) it has to do with proper body and eye alignment to the target which is the same with optics or without. Switching to a angled scoped requires much bigger adjustments in body position and tripod adjustments from binoculars to scope.

Anyone who uses this method while shooting knows the advantage of a straight scope and is almost impossible with an angled scope because now your dealing with two different natural points of aim. Naked eye angle view and angled scope view

Don’t believe me take an Appleseed course and put a angled scope on your rifle. You will be miserable and have the lowest score in the class

I don’t recommend either, I say the user should try both and see what works best for them. If they are a marksman, they might immediately see the benefit of a straight scope
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Old Sunday 7th April 2019, 14:09   #57
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Hi,

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Natural point of aim has nothing to do with relaxed viewing (although it might result in one but not always) it has to do with proper body and eye alignment to the target which is the same with optics or without.
Relaxed viewing is what you're after if you're sitting in a tent and are viewing birds up in the canopy, which is what the thread opener had in mind.

Your suggestion that you can swap a pair of binoculars against a straight scope with no adjustment without affecting body and eye alignment doesn't work because of the geometrical eyepiece displacement I pointed out. (You might be able to hunch and strain for a moment to make it work temporarily, but that's not a substitute for proper body and eye alignment.)

Throwing in "natural point of aim" isn't going to change that, and your suggestion of mounting an angled scope on a rifle completely misses the point since what Joachim suggested was to use a "straight" aiming device to aim the angled scope, not the angled scope to aim anything else.

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Henning
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Old Sunday 7th April 2019, 22:24   #58
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Hi,



Relaxed viewing is what you're after if you're sitting in a tent and are viewing birds up in the canopy, which is what the thread opener had in mind.

Your suggestion that you can swap a pair of binoculars against a straight scope with no adjustment without affecting body and eye alignment doesn't work because of the geometrical eyepiece displacement I pointed out. (You might be able to hunch and strain for a moment to make it work temporarily, but that's not a substitute for proper body and eye alignment.)

Throwing in "natural point of aim" isn't going to change that, and your suggestion of mounting an angled scope on a rifle completely misses the point since what Joachim suggested was to use a "straight" aiming device to aim the angled scope, not the angled scope to aim anything else.

Regards,

Henning

It seems you do not understand natural point of aim. Otherwise you wouldn’t have said the things you said.

If your happy with your angled scope, great! You found what’s best for you

Forums have used your arguments in convincing me to buy a angled scope and it turned out to be an expensive mistake in the past. Just trying to help someone else from doing the same.

I’m bringing awareness to those who do understand natural point of aim and would possibly like to transfer those skills to a spotting scope.

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Old Monday 8th April 2019, 01:04   #59
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Hi,

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Originally Posted by Dd61999 View Post
It seems you do not understand natural point of aim. Otherwise you wouldnít have said the things you said.
Maybe I'd be able to understand why you think "natural point of aim" has any relevance if you'd actually try to describe the technique instead of just invoking its name.

I'm pretty sure though that I'd still stick to my guns in pretty much every point I made, since they aren't much affected by optics pointing style intricacies.

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Forums have used your arguments in convincing me to buy a angled scope and it turned out to be an expensive mistake in the past. Just trying to help someone else from doing the same.
If you want to help other people to avoid "an expensive mistakes", the thing to do is to describe your specific application, and why you didn't manage to point your angled scope at the birds with any kind of an acceptable success rate. You'd not be the first person to find that difficult, so really nothing to be ashamed of.

Regards,

Henning
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Old Monday 8th April 2019, 14:17   #60
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Originally Posted by Hauksen View Post
Hi,



Maybe I'd be able to understand why you think "natural point of aim" has any relevance if you'd actually try to describe the technique instead of just invoking its name.

I'm pretty sure though that I'd still stick to my guns in pretty much every point I made, since they aren't much affected by optics pointing style intricacies.



If you want to help other people to avoid "an expensive mistakes", the thing to do is to describe your specific application, and why you didn't manage to point your angled scope at the birds with any kind of an acceptable success rate. You'd not be the first person to find that difficult, so really nothing to be ashamed of.

Regards,

Henning

I don’t understand why you make an argument against straight spotting scope if you don’t know what natural point of aim is in the first place. Your discrediting something that can be beneficial for those already trained in it.

I’m not a teacher, someone is much better taking a course or learning on their own how to utilize NPA. There is plenty of information out there.

NPA is taking advantage of the way your eyes and body parts naturally want to operate. Resisting muscle movement and utilizing your bones instead for stable and correct views

When you set up behind the optic and relax, your view is going to be pointed somewhere. When you have correct natural point of aim (NPA), the view will be on target even if you close your eyes for ten seconds and reopen them again. Your body eyesight and optic are in perfect alignment. If you reopen your eyes and the optic is not in perfect alignment. your body is out of alignment

While angled spotters are fiddling around with silly zip ties. The straight spotters are already on target because the view is in the same alignment naked eye or with the straight spotting scope
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Old Monday 8th April 2019, 14:57   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dd61999 View Post
I don’t understand why you make an argument against straight spotting scope if you don’t know what natural point of aim is in the first place. Your discrediting something that can be beneficial for those already trained in it.

I’m not a teacher, someone is much better taking a course or learning on their own how to utilize NPA. There is plenty of information out there.

NPA is taking advantage of the way your eyes and body parts naturally want to operate. Resisting muscle movement and utilizing your bones instead for stable and correct views

When you set up behind the optic and relax, your view is going to be pointed somewhere. When you have correct natural point of aim (NPA), the view will be on target even if you close your eyes for ten seconds and reopen them again. Your body eyesight and optic are in perfect alignment. If you reopen your eyes and the optic is not in perfect alignment. your body is out of alignment

While angled spotters are fiddling around with silly zip ties. The straight spotters are already on target because the view is in the same alignment naked eye or with the straight spotting scope
What is so silly about using zip ties on angled spotting scope if that works good??? You can use a angled spotter to look at the night sky some as well, not the best but works.

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Old Monday 8th April 2019, 16:09   #62
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What is so silly about using zip ties on angled spotting scope if that works good??? You can use a angled spotter to look at the night sky some as well, not the best but works.
If it works for you, great! Just giving a different perspective on straight scopes because they have benefits as well.

As an astronomer straight scopes can be used just like binoculars at the night sky
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Old Monday 8th April 2019, 22:14   #63
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If it works for you, great! Just giving a different perspective on straight scopes because they have benefits as well.
Giving different perspectives is fine - unless those perspectives include gun barrels - then they're strictly off topic here!

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As an astronomer straight scopes can be used just like binoculars at the night sky
Yes, japanese style - although I would insist on a parallelogram mount and a reclining chair in that case. Then it's super comfy - otherwise your neck will not like it.

Joachim
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Old Tuesday 9th April 2019, 08:27   #64
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Hi,

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I donít understand why you make an argument against straight spotting scope if you donít know what natural point of aim is in the first place. Your discrediting something that can be beneficial for those already trained in it.
So which of the numerous disadvantages of straight scopes listed in this thread do you actually disagree with?

Here's an incomplete list of some of the points made in this thread, by me and others:

1) You'll need a longer, heavier tripod with a straight scope.
2) Sitting inside the tent door and looking upward into the trees with a straight scope will result in a quite cramped neck position...
3) If sharing the scope with others that aren't your height, the angled scope will require far less tripod adjustment.
4) I think it would be much more convenient to use an angled scope when sitting in front of a tripod. Not only does the angle help you to look up more easily, but it's also much easier to adjust one's head position to a new viewing angle than with a straight scope, where you'd have to re-adjust extension height with each change.
5) So I'd think that for your primary application of using the scope from a tripod, angled probably would be better. For the secondary application, using it hand-held, straight might seem like a good idea, but in my opinion it only makes sense with a shoulder-stock, and then angled is as good or better.
6) The main reason to pick a straight scope is usually if you're birding out of a car window. I've also heard one birder saying that he likes it better when looking down from observation towers, which makes sense too.

None of these have anything to do with aiming difficulties, so I don't think improved aiming technique can do anything to ameliorate these drawbacks.

Regards,

Henning
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Old Tuesday 9th April 2019, 13:15   #65
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Hi,



So which of the numerous disadvantages of straight scopes listed in this thread do you actually disagree with?

Here's an incomplete list of some of the points made in this thread, by me and others:

1) You'll need a longer, heavier tripod with a straight scope.
2) Sitting inside the tent door and looking upward into the trees with a straight scope will result in a quite cramped neck position...
3) If sharing the scope with others that aren't your height, the angled scope will require far less tripod adjustment.
4) I think it would be much more convenient to use an angled scope when sitting in front of a tripod. Not only does the angle help you to look up more easily, but it's also much easier to adjust one's head position to a new viewing angle than with a straight scope, where you'd have to re-adjust extension height with each change.
5) So I'd think that for your primary application of using the scope from a tripod, angled probably would be better. For the secondary application, using it hand-held, straight might seem like a good idea, but in my opinion it only makes sense with a shoulder-stock, and then angled is as good or better.
6) The main reason to pick a straight scope is usually if you're birding out of a car window. I've also heard one birder saying that he likes it better when looking down from observation towers, which makes sense too.

None of these have anything to do with aiming difficulties, so I don't think improved aiming technique can do anything to ameliorate these drawbacks.

Regards,

Henning
If you don’t understand NPA you won’t get it, as shown in what you wrote so far. Plus many of those points are completely false. But that’s ok enjoy your angled scope.

There is a angled vs straight debate in another optic forum with people who do understand NPA and agree straight is the way to go. Even the guys who have angle scopes admit the angle take longer to get on target and you have to take your eyes off target when looking down into the scope. Which is a big no no. Especially in fast moving situations, your just not going to keep up. They also admit that angled requires more adjustments when glassing several miles of terrain

There is a reason why cameras and binoculars are straight. Do you know how frustrated people would get using angled versions of those tools in high action situations

Bottom line use what’s best for your application




.

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Old Tuesday 9th April 2019, 13:37   #66
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Hi,

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If you donít understand NPA you wonít get it, as shown in what you wrote.
Oh, so you don't need any arguments because you're enlightened, and I'm not?

Charming ... maybe if I were just as arrogant, I'd be just as convincing.

For starters, I'd like to hear how NPA eliminates the need for a longer and heavier tripod with a straight scope, just to quote my #1.

Unsupported claims on an internet forum ... sure, they have their place, but there comes a point where it's time to demand "butter by the fried fish".

And if you don't get that, take lessons in German ... why should I take five minutes to explain something I perfectly understand when there are so many people selling fine language courses?

Regards,

Henning
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Old Tuesday 9th April 2019, 14:58   #67
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FWIW, I started birding with a straight scope more years ago than I care to remember, but once I saw sense, took the plunge and changed to an angled scope, I found it infinitely superior for all the reasons Henning mentions. I also agree that angled beats straight in a 'hand-held' situation as its possible to steady the scope more effectively by applying downward pressure via the eyepiece against the face and bracing the scope with the upper arm pressed against the torso instead of waving around in space, especially in windy conditions; YMM - of course - V! Incidentally, I thought this forum discussed issues relating primarily to birding? A self-professed 'shooter's' needs will be different - and not necessarily compatible, if you get my drift?

RB

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Old Tuesday 9th April 2019, 16:50   #68
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Hi,



Oh, so you don't need any arguments because you're enlightened, and I'm not?

Charming ... maybe if I were just as arrogant, I'd be just as convincing.

For starters, I'd like to hear how NPA eliminates the need for a longer and heavier tripod with a straight scope, just to quote my #1.

Unsupported claims on an internet forum ... sure, they have their place, but there comes a point where it's time to demand "butter by the fried fish".

And if you don't get that, take lessons in German ... why should I take five minutes to explain something I perfectly understand when there are so many people selling fine language courses?

Regards,

Henning
Your projecting and putting words in my mouth

I clearly did not dismiss angled spotting scopes. I made a case for straight scopes in SOME applications. Yet you wanted make an argument against it when you are not even familiar with it. Thatís not fair to newcomers who ARE familiar with it and would take it seriously into consideration.

As far as number 1, many hunters are ultra lighters and count grams and ounces in their tripod selection. There are several lightweight tripods available for straight scopes. Unlike most birders, many hike for days with these lightweight tripods

Let go of trying to be right and allow readers to make decisions objectively in their purchase by having the information on the benefits of each design. Instead of dismissing concepts you admittedly have no experience in.
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Old Tuesday 9th April 2019, 17:02   #69
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?.......! Incidentally, I thought this forum discussed issues relating primarily to birding? A self-professed 'shooter's' needs will be different - and not necessarily compatible, if you get my drift?

RB
It is regarding birding, itís adapting a skill set from another sport that could potentially benefit this community greatly. The same way it benefited me when picking up the birding hobby

While many may find firearms offensive. It doesnít change the fact in how our body and eyesight works when looking at a bird. You can increase your birding experience by understanding these concepts.
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Old Tuesday 9th April 2019, 18:49   #70
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Hi,

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Originally Posted by Dd61999 View Post
Your projecting and putting words in my mouth
I'll give you some highlights in direct quotes:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dd61999 View Post
I don’t understand why you make an argument against straight spotting scope if you don’t know what natural point of aim is in the first place. Your discrediting something that can be beneficial for those already trained in it.

I’m not a teacher, someone is much better taking a course or learning on their own how to utilize NPA. There is plenty of information out there.
Re-iterated in re-phrased form as:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dd61999 View Post
If you don’t understand NPA you won’t get it, as shown in what you wrote so far. Plus many of those points are completely false. But that’s ok enjoy your angled scope.
If that doesn't light up your arrogance-o-meter all over the scale, you might want to have it checked by customer support as surely, something must be wrong with it.

Especially as all the while you were evading to actually deal with the contents of my arguments, other than dismissing them summarily.

If you're ready for a factual discussion on a content level, points #2 to #6 still remain to be answered by you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dd61999 View Post
I made a case for straight scopes in SOME applications. Yet you wanted make an argument against it when you are not even familiar with it.
B1) So why exactly do you think I'm not familiar with straight scopes?

Not that it should matter what you think I'm familiar with or not, but you're taking the ad hominem road there, so I'm asking you to explain yourself. (Ad hominem typically is a big no-no in online forums, for good reasons.)

With regards to "arguments against" straight scopes (actually, it's a factual list of disadvantages), they are up there, numbered for easy reference, so go ahead and make proper ad rerum arguments. I do actually invite disagreement, as long as it's rational and factual.

Quote:
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As far as number 1, many hunters are ultra lighters and count grams and ounces in their tripod selection. There are several lightweight tripods available for straight scopes. Unlike most birders, many hike for days with these lightweight tripods
1) That's a good ad rerum argument, thanks. After considering it thoroughly, I'd say I disagree with it: Whatever lightweight technology you use for a tripod, you still need a smaller tripod for an angled scope than for a straight one, and everything else being equal, a smaller tripod is going to be lighter than a bigger tripod.

What you are describing is hunters weighing their options and accepting the disadvantage that comes from the use of an angled scope. That's a valid strategy, and the existence of light-weight tripods (which are not necessarily suited for all birding applications) might reduce the negative impact of the straight scope's disadvantage to a neglegible measure.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dd61999 View Post
Let go of trying to be right and allow readers to make decisions objectively in their purchase by having the information on the benefits of each design. Instead of dismissing concepts you admittedly have no experience in.
I'm not dismissing the concept, I'm asking you to explain it. If you can't, it's really your turn to let go of being right.

Abandoning perfectly good factual statements in the absence of ad-rerum arguments would be irrational, so I stand by the statements I made in this thread. I'm quite confident they are clear enough to allow beginners to reach their own conclusions, diligent reading assumed.

Regards,

Henning
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Old Tuesday 9th April 2019, 19:47   #71
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Kinda fun reading the banter between Dd and Henning though I am on Henning's side about this.

I've had both angled and straight, and currently have both an angled and a straight scope.

From my POV the straight scope does acquire a target a bit quicker and is easier to use for digiscoping because of that. I do not use a cable tie on the angled scope however, though I have before, as I find it a bit fussy putting the scope in it's case and not losing the tie, but that's my issue.

For every other reason and use I have for a spotting scope I prefer an angled version. No doubt that if I were to own but one scope it would be angled, for all the reasons previously mentioned in this thread.

As far as Dd's trying to "save" someone from making the mistake of getting a angled scope over a straight one, it seems to me that one could make the opposite argument, easier.

One's age might be a mitigating factor as well. At 63 I don't much enjoy the angles my neck, back, and knees incur (at times) looking through a straight scope.

Carry on!
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Old Tuesday 9th April 2019, 20:50   #72
Dd61999
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hauksen View Post
Hi,



I'll give you some highlights in direct quotes:



Re-iterated in re-phrased form as:



If that doesn't light up your arrogance-o-meter all over the scale, you might want to have it checked by customer support as surely, something must be wrong with it.

Especially as all the while you were evading to actually deal with the contents of my arguments, other than dismissing them summarily.

If you're ready for a factual discussion on a content level, points #2 to #6 still remain to be answered by you.



B1) So why exactly do you think I'm not familiar with straight scopes?

Not that it should matter what you think I'm familiar with or not, but you're taking the ad hominem road there, so I'm asking you to explain yourself. (Ad hominem typically is a big no-no in online forums, for good reasons.)

With regards to "arguments against" straight scopes (actually, it's a factual list of disadvantages), they are up there, numbered for easy reference, so go ahead and make proper ad rerum arguments. I do actually invite disagreement, as long as it's rational and factual.



1) That's a good ad rerum argument, thanks. After considering it thoroughly, I'd say I disagree with it: Whatever lightweight technology you use for a tripod, you still need a smaller tripod for an angled scope than for a straight one, and everything else being equal, a smaller tripod is going to be lighter than a bigger tripod.

What you are describing is hunters weighing their options and accepting the disadvantage that comes from the use of an angled scope. That's a valid strategy, and the existence of light-weight tripods (which are not necessarily suited for all birding applications) might reduce the negative impact of the straight scope's disadvantage to a neglegible measure.



I'm not dismissing the concept, I'm asking you to explain it. If you can't, it's really your turn to let go of being right.

Abandoning perfectly good factual statements in the absence of ad-rerum arguments would be irrational, so I stand by the statements I made in this thread. I'm quite confident they are clear enough to allow beginners to reach their own conclusions, diligent reading assumed.

Regards,

Henning
I said your not familiar with NPA not straight scopes. Otherwise you have your answer for #2 and #6

I gave you a synopsis of NPA earlier

Peace be with you brother...enjoy your angled scope

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Old Tuesday 9th April 2019, 20:54   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin Conville View Post

One's age might be a mitigating factor as well. At 63 I don't much enjoy the angles my neck, back, and knees incur (at times) looking through a straight scope.

Carry on!
Depends on your viewing, if your looking up all the time, then possibly yes

But if your looking straight ahead. Glassing for hours with an angled scope can cause a strain too, since you are looking in a unnatural position

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Old Tuesday 9th April 2019, 21:21   #74
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For those interested, who is using more muscles when glassing

Angled
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Old Tuesday 9th April 2019, 21:22   #75
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Or straight
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