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'Black-headed' Wagtail in Norfolk (1 Viewer)

Hi,

If this bird was submitted as a feldegg to a French commitee, I am pretty sure it wouldn't be accepted as such.
To me this bird is within the variation of thunbergi, such black-headed birds are regular in migrating groups of thunbergi. To be accepted as a feldegg, a bird must have an uniform glossy black crown, ear-coverts and nape (to me, the nape of the subject bird isn't black enough for a feldegg).

I think the little whitish patch at the base of the lower mandibule is more indicative of thunbergi, but I believe this is variable.

Personnaly, I would add that the shape of this wagtail fits a bird belonging to a northern population, the birds from southern Europe like iberiae or feldegg look slenderer than thunbergi. That's the impression I get from this pic.
 
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Cristian Mihai said:
Hi Tib78,

What do you think about this bird? It's a feldegg or not?
Click to expand...

Hi Cristian,

Since this picture is probably yours and knowing where you are from, I bet your bird is a feldegg (it seems to be well within the variation of feldegg). And I am sure you have a much greater experience of feldegg and its variation than me....

The problem here is that we are talking about a potential extra-limital feldegg...
In France, the national commitee generally stay in the safe side: if a potential vagrant doesn't tick all the boxes then they prefer to name it, say, "Yellow Wagtail showing some features of..." or even reject the record.

To me, it's difficult to be 100% sure from these pictures...
But once again this is only my sentiment, I didn't see the bird in the field and I didn't hear it calling. And anyway, I am not an expert, if this bird is accepted as a feldegg, it will prove I am wrong...

Compare with this french bird, finally identified as a thunbergi:
 

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Tib78, I agree with you that it is very hard to be absolutly sure about such an identification. There is some variability inside the feldegg taxa too. Here are some pics with feldegg from Romania.
 

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I thought while looking at the bird that this may well be debated a little due to the small grey patch on its nape. Could this be due to the fact that it is a bird in moult? If you look at the tertials the bird is clearly in quite a heavy moult at the moment.

Cristian- Is it normal for feldegg (or thunbergi) to have the small pale marks above the bill (as in Pied flycatcher) these marks as well as a small ammount of white below the eye were mirrored on both sides of the bird (see image). Does this give indication of hybrid or is it within limits for a pure bird?
Photo 2 shows moulting wing and grey nape


Cheers,
Ben
 

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I agree with Tib that the subject bird seems not to be a clearly feldegg by it´s nape colour and that it´s a tricky subject to separate some thunbergi from feldegg. However, since the underparts are deep yellow and the upperparts clear green it might well be a feldegg, but a first summer male due to worn brownish primaries and primary coverts.
The moult contrast in the greater coverts with worn juvenile (?) outers and newer inners together with the paler nape and whitish chin would further suggest a first summer.

Some fresh birds have greenish tips to the nape feathers - which further on wears of produsing the jet-black nape.

JanJ
 
ben_lewis said:
Cristian- Is it normal for feldegg (or thunbergi) to have the small pale marks above the bill (as in Pied flycatcher) these marks as well as a small ammount of white below the eye were mirrored on both sides of the bird (see image). Does this give indication of hybrid or is it within limits for a pure bird?
Photo 2 shows moulting wing and grey nape


Cheers,
Ben
Click to expand...

Hi Ben,

As you can see in the pics from post #7 there are feldegg birds with (very) short superciliums behind the eyes. Probably these birds have some flava ancestors, but they are not hybrids flava X feldegg (they don't have one flava parent and one feldegg parent). I didn't see any feldegg bird with that kind of small spot behind the bill. The bird from post #5 has also a non-black nape...
 
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the white patches above and below bill may be due to its age - probably a 2cy as jan said. very hard to say if feldegg or not - it definitely is within feldegg variation since many (most?) male birds i see in SE europe do have a greyish or greenish nape.
ben's 2nd pic, #8, shos some dark patches on the right side of chin and throat - i think this is more a thunbergi feature.
 
There is certainly a large difference between the bird in question and the photos posted by Makpe of (regular) Thunbergi's. However the bird is obviously similar to the picture shown by Tib of a questionable? Thunbergi. The YW complex is just that, complex! I should mention that the photo I posted showing the pale nape was taken in very strong sunlight so may emphasize the greyness a bit, however it was noted in the field. I am not familiar with the call differences or how important they are, but this bird was heard calling at the same time as a flavissima, it was clearly a lot more shrill sharper and harsher (I can't describe calls too well so I'm not sure that this helps, but you never know)
 
Here is a picture of the BHW from Northumberland yesterday.
http://www.birdguides.com/iris/pictures.asp?f=202629
Obviously taken from a much larger distance hence lack of detail but is it the same bird?? To me the head looks blacker and the back less green (although you can make out a grey patch on the back of the head). These factors could easily be due to distance and poor light I guess.
 
Connor Rand said:
Another good pic here from Steve Gantlett on the Birding world site http://www.birdingworld.co.uk/Norfolk 2009.1.htm
Click to expand...

Looks very, very good in this picture for a feldegg!!


mäkpe said:
It would be nice to know why French RC identified the bird in Tib78 post #6 as a thunbergi.
Click to expand...

I'll try to find out the whole story behind that bird (might take a while) and I'll let you guys know...

ben_lewis said:
However the bird is obviously similar to the picture shown by Tib of a questionable? Thunbergi.
Click to expand...

It looks very questionnable, especially if you compare it to some of Cristian's feldegg

ben_lewis said:
I am not familiar with the call differences or how important they are, but this bird was heard calling at the same time as a flavissima, it was clearly a lot more shrill sharper and harsher (I can't describe calls too well so I'm not sure that this helps, but you never know)
Click to expand...

Since my English is far from being perfect, I may not thoroughly understand your comment...still, your description of the call sounds quite good for a feldegg to me...
 
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