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Dragonflies of Europe Book (1 Viewer)

I have ordered it from insect.de for 45 euros + 7 euros postage. I expect it to arrive any day and I'll let you know what I think.
 
Jos Stratford said:
Doesn't have English names if that is of relevance - seems a waste that they write such a book in English, but can't be bothered to add the English names, which would be appreciated by a considerable number of potential readers.
Click to expand...

Thanks Jos, I agree that not having English names is irritating but a number of species have alternative English names which I find confusing at the best of times!

pdwinter said:
I have ordered it from insect.de for 45 euros + 7 euros postage. I expect it to arrive any day and I'll let you know what I think.
Click to expand...

Thanks Paul, a better price than from NHBS! I look forward to reading your thoughts on the book.

Roger
 
Jos Stratford said:
Doesn't have English names if that is of relevance - seems a waste that they write such a book in English, but can't be bothered to add the English names, which would be appreciated by a considerable number of potential readers.
Click to expand...

It seems a willful decision to me. Like it or not, the majority of English speakers find it easier to learn and recall names in their native tongue so to write a book in English without using colloquial English names will only make the book feel less 'accessible' than it could otherwise have been. Nobody would dream of writing a book in English about birds without using the standard English names. And if there are no agreed English names, they've missed an opportunity to establish one.
 
I'm 100% with the authors in their use of scientific names only. The book is not aimed solely at native English speakers - I expect the uptake will be greater in other countries.

Onychogomphus forcipatus used to be known as Green-eyed Hooktail and is now (Dijkstra) known as Small Pincertail.
Onychogomphus uncatus used to be known as Blue-eyed Hooktail and is now (Dijkstra) known as Large Pincertail.

The problem with the old English names is that the subspecies of Onychogomphus forcipatus which occurs in Spain has blue eyes (as you will know from Cádiz, John). The problem with the new (Dijkstra) names is that you will not be able to separate them on size in the field. Why even bother to make up an English name for a species that does not occur in the UK or USA - so much easier to use the international common denominator of scientific name.

What do you do with Aeshna cyanea? The BDS name is Southern Hawker and the Dijkstra name is Blue Hawker. My personal view is that Blue Hawker would be more appropriate for Aeshna affinis as that insect is predominantly blue on thorax and abdomen (at least in male insects!) whereas Aeshna cyanea is solidly green up front with a blue tail light and some blue on the abdomen if you get close enough to see it.

Common Darter (Sympetrum striolatum) is another poor English name - in Southern Spain you will see 1000s of fonscolombii but a few striolatum whereas in north and east Europe vulgatum (Moustached or Vagrant Darter) is more common than striolatum.

A bit of a hobbyhorse of mine!
 
pdwinter said:
I'm 100% with the authors in their use of scientific names only. The book is not aimed solely at native English speakers - I expect the uptake will be greater in other countries.
Click to expand...

Adding two or three words, ie the English name, would be neither here nor there in terms of production, but would certainly make the book easier to use for a lot of potential readers. If you prefer the scientific name, all well and good, it will be there for you to use. It is nonsense to suggest the inclusion of an English name would persuade some to not like the book or be more confused - bird books, most butterfly books, tree guides, etc all manage it.

Obviously it is the author's right to do whatever he chooses, but ultimately the book is less attractive to a portion of potential users.
 
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pdwinter said:
Common Darter (Sympetrum striolatum) is another poor English name - in Southern Spain you will see 1000s of fonscolombii but a few striolatum whereas in north and east Europe vulgatum (Moustached or Vagrant Darter) is more common than striolatum.

A bit of a hobbyhorse of mine!
Click to expand...

All these are faced by guides for birds, butterflies, etc: Scarce Copper, by far the most abundant copper in my area; Kentish Plover, dream on for many in Kent; Common Sandpiper, less common than Wood Sandpiper here, etc
 
Jos Stratford said:
All these are faced by guides for birds, butterflies, etc: Scarce Copper, by far the most abundant copper in my area; Kentish Plover, dream on for many in Kent; Common Sandpiper, less common than Wood Sandpiper here, etc
Click to expand...

Even more reason to use the scientific name!
 
pdwinter said:
I'm 100% with the authors in their use of scientific names only. The book is not aimed solely at native English speakers - I expect the uptake will be greater in other countries.

Onychogomphus forcipatus used to be known as Green-eyed Hooktail and is now (Dijkstra) known as Small Pincertail.
Onychogomphus uncatus used to be known as Blue-eyed Hooktail and is now (Dijkstra) known as Large Pincertail.

The problem with the old English names is that the subspecies of Onychogomphus forcipatus which occurs in Spain has blue eyes (as you will know from Cádiz, John). The problem with the new (Dijkstra) names is that you will not be able to separate them on size in the field. Why even bother to make up an English name for a species that does not occur in the UK or USA - so much easier to use the international common denominator of scientific name.

What do you do with Aeshna cyanea? The BDS name is Southern Hawker and the Dijkstra name is Blue Hawker. My personal view is that Blue Hawker would be more appropriate for Aeshna affinis as that insect is predominantly blue on thorax and abdomen (at least in male insects!) whereas Aeshna cyanea is solidly green up front with a blue tail light and some blue on the abdomen if you get close enough to see it.

Common Darter (Sympetrum striolatum) is another poor English name - in Southern Spain you will see 1000s of fonscolombii but a few striolatum whereas in north and east Europe vulgatum (Moustached or Vagrant Darter) is more common than striolatum.

A bit of a hobbyhorse of mine!
Click to expand...

I'm sorry but I can't follow your logic at all. Adding an English name to each species account in no way reduces the functionality of the book for non-native English speakers. It might even help them and will certainly help many native English speakers who, like me, find scientific names difficult to recall (or pronounce). It's simply not an issue with birds, mammals or butterflies so why should it be any different for dragonflies particularly since there are relative few of them (unlike micro-moths & beetles)? I'm sure you wouldn't advocate English 'field guide' names should be expunged. We all cope with bird names that are appropriate in one place but not in another so I cannot see why dragonflies should be any different. Nor is it difficult to add alternative names, where needed, as done in Dijkstra & Lewington (a smaller book). Look at older bird books and you'll see one or two alternative names were often given but that this settled down as a consensus developed. Whilst you might not find it so, for many adhering to scientific names only has the whiff of exclusivity. I simply don't understand why using English names in such a guide should be a problem for anyone. Surely it's important to make books on wildlife as accessible as possible to all. (PS thanks for your generosity in assuming that I knew Onychogomphus forcipatus has blue eyes but my knowledge of dragonflies is very superficial - which is perhaps why we disagree on this matter).
 
pdwinter said:
Even more reason to use the scientific name!
Click to expand...

Under this dragonfly guide, the summary is given as "a simple but detailed guide for beginners who want to increase their knowledge of the dragonflies of Europe".

Fundamentally, for many beginners, a book without any English names is going to be a lot harder to use, not simple.

Nobody is suggesting the scientific name shouldn't be there too, but omitting English names is, in my view, a weakness of the guide.
 
pdwinter said:
I'm 100% with the authors in their use of scientific names only. The book is not aimed solely at native English speakers - I expect the uptake will be greater in other countries.

Onychogomphus forcipatus used to be known as Green-eyed Hooktail and is now (Dijkstra) known as Small Pincertail.
Onychogomphus uncatus used to be known as Blue-eyed Hooktail and is now (Dijkstra) known as Large Pincertail.

The problem with the old English names is that the subspecies of Onychogomphus forcipatus which occurs in Spain has blue eyes (as you will know from Cádiz, John). The problem with the new (Dijkstra) names is that you will not be able to separate them on size in the field. Why even bother to make up an English name for a species that does not occur in the UK or USA - so much easier to use the international common denominator of scientific name.

What do you do with Aeshna cyanea? The BDS name is Southern Hawker and the Dijkstra name is Blue Hawker. My personal view is that Blue Hawker would be more appropriate for Aeshna affinis as that insect is predominantly blue on thorax and abdomen (at least in male insects!) whereas Aeshna cyanea is solidly green up front with a blue tail light and some blue on the abdomen if you get close enough to see it.

Common Darter (Sympetrum striolatum) is another poor English name - in Southern Spain you will see 1000s of fonscolombii but a few striolatum whereas in north and east Europe vulgatum (Moustached or Vagrant Darter) is more common than striolatum.

A bit of a hobbyhorse of mine!
Click to expand...

I have to admit I'm totally with Jos and John on this but I am really looking forward to hearing your opinions of this book and if it's worth getting in addition to the Dijkstra and Lewington book.
 
Well we'll have to disagree as to whether English names are necessary in the book. I'm only an amateur dragonflyer but I have found that the best way to communicate in Europe about European dragonflies is to use the scientific name.

I also think that newcomers to dragonflies can cope well with those names but then I am not in the teaching or tour guide profession so it is just an opinion rather than 'an in the field' experience.

I will certainly give a review although my expectations are that I will say "If you have Dijkstra then it is not worth buying unless you prefer photographs to drawings" but I'm hoping to be pleasantly surprised.
 
pdwinter said:
Well we'll have to disagree as to whether English names are necessary in the book. I'm only an amateur dragonflyer but I have found that the best way to communicate in Europe about European dragonflies is to use the scientific name.

I also think that newcomers to dragonflies can cope well with those names but then I am not in the teaching or tour guide profession so it is just an opinion rather than 'an in the field' experience.

I will certainly give a review although my expectations are that I will say "If you have Dijkstra then it is not worth buying unless you prefer photographs to drawings" but I'm hoping to be pleasantly surprised.
Click to expand...

Like Mallory's comment about Everest, the usual reason I find for buying a decent book of any sort is "because it's there!"
 
If you go to http://biodiversityassociation.org/...es-and-damselflies-of-europe-wba-handbooks-7/ and click on Vedi esempio contenuti then you can get 35 sample pages and judge for yourselves ...

For me it doesn't add anything on ID to what is in Dijkstra. The distribution maps are more up to date - probably the same as in the recent European atlas but coloured in slightly differently - but probably still out of date for some species. The photographs are good and I know some people prefer photos to drawings so they might prefer it to Dikstra.

Pemberley Books have it for £43 - the paperback of Dijkstra is available from them for £14.95 currently!
 
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