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Does EMR harm living organisms?

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Old Thursday 11th April 2019, 13:24   #1551
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@ fugl See post 1510 for questions I asked you. And you are wrong--I have not spent my time attacking the authors of papers saying EMR is safe--find me one instance, rather than saying that "the defense of [my] views is based on ad hominem attacks on the honour and integrity of thousands and thousands of highly credentialed scientists". To disagree with someone's work is not to attack the man-- I leave that up to you, with your repeated ridicule of Firstenberg, for instance, whose work you have never read (though why do you suppose 26,000 scientists signed his 5G Space Appeal?). You are, quite frankly, being ridiculous.

If you would willingly send your child to a school with a cell phone mast next to it, you are mad. I attach several papers, all quite readable, for you to consider--a very recent one by Professor Tom Butler (On the Clear Evidence of Risks to Children from Smartphone and Wi-Fi Radio Frequency Radiation) which is excellent, and which sums up a number of things I have been saying all along--check out his biog, which is extremely interesting) and two from Barrie Trower. In Barrie Trower SA you will find (page 4, par 3 under the heading "Health" you will find this: "By 2003, a 19 page international report had been published listing in excess of 130 such [cancer] clusters near schools [which were next to cell towers]". His other piece, called "Wi-Fi, a Thalidomide in the Making" is also extremely interesting.

@hwinbermuda Did I not say that I am NOT trying to make you feel guilty? Really, that's not the issue here. Honestly, I swear that since the smartphone was invented, nobody really reads anything anymore, and comprehension is zero.

On the subject of conclusive proof (of EMR damage or anything else, for that matter) I found an interesting quote in Barrie Trower SA: "conclusive proof would require infinite knowledge". All I have been trying to establish here is that there are reasonable grounds for concern, and therefore we should apply the precautionary principle.

Do you not think, then, that there are any grounds for concern, either in regard to human health or in regard to nature? Because if your answer is yes, you should sign the 5G Space Appeal, and if your answer is no, I hope you are really, really sure of that, and I mean 100% positive. Read thhe Butler piece, attached, and tell me that none of what he says could apply just as easily to nature.

@ Chosun If you believe in the precautionary principle, and if you think that anything I have said, anything in the many, many studies and articles posted, gives reasonable grounds for concern, then you should sign the 5G space appeal whether you think it is well-written or not. Our bias should always be towards safety, towards precaution--because we will not be able to pick up the pieces of this afterwards.

What primary research would you have me, or all of us, do at this time? I mean, other than say bird counts which are already being done (and which is how we know that one in eight species worldwide is now threatened or endangered, one in five for Europe). How would you use this time? I can, and do, try to keep track of local birds, but admittedly not in a deeply organized fashion (which does not prevent me from recognizing that certain species have almost completely, and some completely, disappeared of late). So what would you do and how would you design it?

As for the birding organizations, and the nature NGOs generally, I frankly have no faith in them at all. They have deliberately and sedulously ignored the threat that EMR poses (or might pose), have done no studies of their own in all this time (30 years!) have made no attempt to correlate bird, insect or wildlife numbers with proximity to EMR sources, and indeed have ignored the issue altogether, while in fact using RF tracking devices and wireless technology to the max. I have tried very very hard to get them interested--I have written over a thousand letters to NGOs, particularly bird NGOs, and from the quality and type of the responses I got, I can assure you, they are not interested. A look at who is sitting on their boards and providing funding tells you why; one or two, like the Sierra Club, have gone so far as to state publicly that they support wireless technologies.

So let's not pretend the nature NGOs are going to be of any use at all, or that the WHO is, or any of these so-called charities who use public money and then ignore the public good. And while I appreciate that you are still attempting to sound as if you are open-minded (perhaps you are, perhaps you aren't) you simply won't sit down and really read any of the materials I've provided, while at the same time reiterating the demand for conclusive proof. There IS no conclusive proof but hindsight. That's 20-20. And it always, but always comes too late.

But by all means, tell me what you would do in the way of primary research that would establish a baseline in the next 18 months or so.
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Old Thursday 11th April 2019, 17:19   #1552
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There is an argument that if you are phoned by scammers of the "your computer has a virus" type and you are aware that they are scammers that you should prolong the conversation. That way you are denying the scammers the opportunity to talk to folk who may be more gullible.

I view this thread in a similar way.
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Old Thursday 11th April 2019, 17:58   #1553
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There is an argument that if you are phoned by scammers of the "your computer has a virus" type and you are aware that they are scammers that you should prolong the conversation. That way you are denying the scammers the opportunity to talk to folk who may be more gullible.

I view this thread in a similar way.
Harsh, very harsh!
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Old Thursday 11th April 2019, 18:21   #1554
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@ fugl See post 1510 for questions I asked you. And you are wrong--I have not spent my time attacking the authors of papers saying EMR is safe--find me one instance, rather than saying that "the defense of [my] views is based on ad hominem attacks on the honour and integrity of thousands and thousands of highly credentialed scientists". To disagree with someone's work is not to attack the man-- I leave that up to you, with your repeated ridicule of Firstenberg, for instance, whose work you have never read (though why do you suppose 26,000 scientists signed his 5G Space Appeal?). You are, quite frankly, being ridiculous.
So, you’re saying the 97% are by and large good & honorable scientists who have been conned by the deep state/military-industrial-complex into believing EMR is safe? Just fools, in other words, not scoundrels. If that is in fact your contention, how is it not an ad hominem attack on as near as dammit the entire scientific establishment?
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Old Thursday 11th April 2019, 18:52   #1555
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I'm just impressed there are over 26,000 B.S.-, Masters-, or Ph.D.-level scientists world-wide whose field of study is specifically EMR.

Where does one go to get a count of all degree holders and their field of study in order to get these sorts of impressive statistics?
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Old Thursday 11th April 2019, 19:43   #1556
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They were asked for background information when they signed the petition. I was one of them.

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Old Thursday 11th April 2019, 20:18   #1557
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mono View Post
There is an argument that if you are phoned by scammers of the "your computer has a virus" type and you are aware that they are scammers that you should prolong the conversation. That way you are denying the scammers the opportunity to talk to folk who may be more gullible.

I view this thread in a similar way.
I'm afraid you missed your own message. Your snide remarks, and those of others, have attracted more viewers thereby giving Purple Heron a larger audience. Keep that strategy going.

As of this post, the thread has 1,555 posts and 105,159 views. She's winning bigtime.

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Old Thursday 11th April 2019, 23:45   #1558
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I'm afraid you missed your own message. Your snide remarks, and those of others, have attracted more viewers thereby giving Purple Heron a larger audience. Keep that strategy going.

As of this post, the thread has 1,555 posts and 105,159 views. She's winning bigtime.
Not “winning” but losing “bigtime”, you’ve got it exactly backwards. Many, many more “visitors” (or, at least, “visitations”) but no new converts or at least none such who are prepared to admit to their folly, you being the first and the last (except for litebeam if he’s to be counted). The fact is, the more she posts, the thinner and less credible and more dogmatic her arguments appear, so much so that for many contributors to the thread she’s been little more than a figure-of-fun for a long time now.
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Old Thursday 11th April 2019, 23:45   #1559
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Exclamation mm waves

Interesting .....
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.abc...ticle/10993112





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Old Friday 12th April 2019, 07:14   #1560
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Originally Posted by Chosun Juan View Post
That's a good basic explanation of a very complex subject! One interesting statistic from the BBC report is that the black hole is wider than our entire solar system...

Our insignificance takes on a wholly new perspective...
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Old Friday 12th April 2019, 13:41   #1561
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One interesting statistic from the BBC report is that the black hole is wider than our entire solar system...

Our insignificance takes on a wholly new perspective...
Here's a way to visualize that:

The M87 Black Hole and Our Solar System by XKCD

Of course you have to know that Voyager 1 exited the heliopause in August 25, 2012, which marks it's official exit from the solar system. So for the purposes of the above link, that black spot in the middle is about the size of our solar system, give or take a few AU.
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Old Friday 12th April 2019, 13:47   #1562
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That's a good basic explanation of a very complex subject! One interesting statistic from the BBC report is that the black hole is wider than our entire solar system...

Our insignificance takes on a wholly new perspective...
MJB
Very complex alright !
Hawking's books were pedestrian in comparison .....
I'm still getting over Pluto getting dumped .....
and I wish people would stop saying nothing escapes a black hole - it's confusing the heck out of me !





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Old Friday 12th April 2019, 14:08   #1563
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Exclamation

Quote:
Originally Posted by CalvinFold View Post
Here's a way to visualize that:

The M87 Black Hole and Our Solar System by XKCD

Of course you have to know that Voyager 1 exited the heliopause in August 25, 2012, which marks it's official exit from the solar system. So for the purposes of the above link, that black spot in the middle is about the size of our solar system, give or take a few AU.
Cool ! Is there one that explains the black hole's mass of 6.5 billion Sm (even though the singularity is infinite?) and yet an average density less than water ?





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Old Friday 12th April 2019, 14:12   #1564
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and I wish people would stop saying nothing escapes a black hole - it's confusing the heck out of me !
Would it make it better or worse if we mention Hawking Radiation "escapes" a black hole, and "information" is preserved once the matter collapses into the singularity?

The whole concept of "information" and "hologram" in the preservation theories around black holes make my brain hurt too much.

I still can't quite reconcile how scientists say the universe is expanding yet also say there isn't a center to the universe, or maybe more accurate to say "everywhere is the center and the universe is expanding out' from each of those centers."
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Old Saturday 13th April 2019, 00:31   #1565
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Smile

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Originally Posted by CalvinFold View Post
Would it make it better or worse if we mention Hawking Radiation "escapes" a black hole, and "information" is preserved once the matter collapses into the singularity?

The whole concept of "information" and "hologram" in the preservation theories around black holes make my brain hurt too much.

I still can't quite reconcile how scientists say the universe is expanding yet also say there isn't a center to the universe, or maybe more accurate to say "everywhere is the center and the universe is expanding out' from each of those centers."
Ah yes ~~ Infinity .......... it's pretty big !





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Old Saturday 13th April 2019, 07:49   #1566
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Originally Posted by CalvinFold View Post
Here's a way to visualize that:

The M87 Black Hole and Our Solar System by XKCD

Of course you have to know that Voyager 1 exited the heliopause in August 25, 2012, which marks its official exit from the solar system. So for the purposes of the above link, that black spot in the middle is about the size of our solar system, give or take a few AU.
What's a few AU between friends...?
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Old Saturday 13th April 2019, 07:53   #1567
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Ah yes ~~ Infinity .......... it's pretty big !
Chosun
...but some infinities are larger than others...
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Old Saturday 13th April 2019, 08:40   #1568
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Does EMR harm living organisms?

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Originally Posted by CalvinFold View Post
Would it make it better or worse if we mention Hawking Radiation "escapes" a black hole, and "information" is preserved once the matter collapses into the singularity?



The whole concept of "information" and "hologram" in the preservation theories around black holes make my brain hurt too much.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CalvinFold View Post
Would it make it better or worse if we mention Hawking Radiation "escapes" a black hole, and "information" is preserved once the matter collapses into the singularity?



The whole concept of "information" and "hologram" in the preservation theories around black holes make my brain hurt too much.
(Bloody Tapatalk destroyed a long answer!!)

Complicated and not yet settled.

To understand the role of information, remember that most of what we perceive as the real world is mostly information. Take two animals of different species with the same mass. Their chemical composition is the same, but DNA, ie, the order of the nucleotide bases, determines how all that matter is arranged.

The same happens with matter at a microscopic level. The chemical properties of an element depend on the number of protons in its nucleus. Take enough atoms of harmless hydrogen, rearrange them so that you have enough protons and neutrons and, voila, you will have uranium.

Now, the black hole. Does the state of the black hole change in any way depending on what does fall on it? Would it be any different if a glass or a plastic bottle of the same mass fell on it? Remember that on Earth it’s really difficult to destroy information. Just watch the “CSI” series :)

The debate is complicated as far as I know (I just checked Wikipedia, I am not even remotely knowledgeable on the state of Theoretical Physics) because Physics is still incomplete. Either Quantum Physics, or General Relativity, or both, are wrong.


And some of the debate relies on the Next Theory which is far from settled. (For a good overview of the debate have a look at "The Trouble with Physics" by Lee Smolin).


As for the apparent paradox of the expanding universe, that one is easier. Imagine an ant living on a balloon. The ant lives on a tridimensional world, completely unaware of the inside of the balloon. Also, there is no centre of the surface. Imagine the balloon inflating now. The ant’s world would be expanding!

We live in a four dimension (at least!) universe. There’s the three spatial dimensions and time. So, imagine that those three dimensions we are used to perceive form a hyper sphere in a four dimension universe. There you have it. Very very rough but I hope it can help form a mental image.

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Old Saturday 13th April 2019, 12:09   #1569
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Wireless Tech: Dead Planet Walking

The attached Panagopoulos paper, which is just out, thoroughly makes the case that wireless technologies/mobile telephony will kill us and the planet. This is the culminating paper of a series beginning with a number of drosophilia experiments conducted by Panagopouls and Margaritis, followed by the paper showing that pulsed EMR is more dangerous than continuous wave EMR, followed by the paper about real vs. simulated mobile phone exposures, and it is brilliant.

In it, Panagopoulos concludes that mobile telephony EMFs cause more damage than any other type of EMR, and this explains studies/findings connecting EMR exposure with insect, bird, mammalian and other infertility and population declines during the past 10-15 years (note that this is when the greatest declines have actually taken place).

Panagopoulos makes the point, as I have, that all species, including us, are basically alike. See page 6, par 4 in the right hand column, where he says, "In addition to remarkable gene similarities, the basic cellular processes are identical in insect and mammalian cells."

The really sobering conclusion of this paper is what should give everyone pause: adaptation to pulsed microwave radiation (EMR) is impossible. And if it is impossible, no species can survive. We have written our own and the planet's death warrant with wireless technologies. With or without 5G, we are a dead planet walking. 5G will only speed up a process that is already happening.

I include the Jerry Flynn piece for those of you who have not yet grasped how corrupt our governments, media and organizations like the WHO are. Worth a read.

I truly hope that everyone who has asked me to prove the case against EMR reads the Panagopoulos paper. It is only 10 pages long, and it offers conclusive proof that EMR is indeed killing birds, insects, wildlife and us.
Attached Files
File Type: pdf Panagopoulos-2019-Mut Res Rev.pdf (2.33 MB, 12 views)
File Type: docx Mother of All Crimes - 5G Technology!.docx (52.4 KB, 13 views)
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Old Saturday 13th April 2019, 22:11   #1570
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...I include the Jerry Flynn piece for those of you who have not yet grasped how corrupt our governments, media and organizations like the WHO are. Worth a read.
Diana,

Although in my view the Panagopoulos paper is quite compelling with regard to EMR effects, I'm sorry to report that you missed an unacceptable aspect of Capt. Jerry Flynn that casts a long shadow on whatever he has to say. Note that his first reference is a disgusting antisemitic conspiracy rant about the communications industry. I'm sure you wouldn't agree with this or wish to be associated with it.

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Old Sunday 14th April 2019, 16:40   #1571
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China takes Australia's Huawei 5G ban to global trade umpire


https://theworldnews.net/au-news/chi...l-trade-umpire








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Old Monday 15th April 2019, 12:22   #1572
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@ Ed, I truly apologize about the Jerry Flynn piece; I hadn't read it and in fact I posted the wrong one of two (I had read the other and it didn't contain said rant). Need I say I will no longer post anything the man writes?

With regard to the Panagopoulos paper, what he says has made me realize that I may have been wrong in my initial assumption that 4G as a frequency was responsible for sudden and rapid declines in bird and insect populations. Because I noticed a strong correlation between declines and masts after 4G appeared, I assumed that the specific frequency was to blame, and though I noted in my paper (the one at the start of this thread) the huge proliferation of cell towers all over northern Greece (as here on Samos) I have kept assuming that the frequency is the main cause of the declines. There may be some correlation between the frequency and effects on certain species, but what Panagopoulos is saying is that it doesn't matter which generation of mobile communications we are talking about--they are all as bad as each other. Of course, with 2G we had very few cell towers; with 3G rather more, but with 4G (and Wi-Fi and the smartphone and the hugely increased burden of EMR) there are huge numbers of cell towers, at least ten times as many where I live as when we had 2G, and of course with 5G there will be ten times as many again. And of course the pulsations now carry much more information, and so many many more people are constantly using wireless devices. This of course explains why population declines have been speeding up in the past 10-15 years. So even if you knocked mobile communications all the way back to 2G, if there were the same number of masts as we have today, and the same number of users, we would still be seeing the declines we are witnessing now.

@ all In case not everyone who has read the paper has got the point, what Panagopoulos is saying is that we have to get rid of all wireless communications, now, if we want the human race and the planet to survive. It's not just about 5G. 5G will only speed up the inevitable death of all species on this planet.

@ Borjam If you have read the Panagopoulos paper, I think it will answer some of your objections to my arguments. Radar, for instance, differs from mobile communications EMR in that the pulses are regular. And as for Chernobyl, the radioactive substances degrade year on year--and adaptation is possible, though you will get mutations (e.g. blind mice).
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Old Monday 15th April 2019, 16:16   #1573
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. With regard to the Panagopoulos paper, what he says has made me realize that I may have been wrong in my initial assumption that 4G as a frequency was responsible for sudden and rapid declines in bird and insect populations. . . . In case not everyone who has read the paper has got the point, what Panagopoulos is saying is that we have to get rid of all wireless communications, now, if we want the human race and the planet to survive. It's not just about 5G. 5G will only speed up the inevitable death of all species on this planet.
Good to hear you’ve got it right at last.

The question now broadens to “where to start in ‘getting rid of all wireless communication’”?
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Old Tuesday 16th April 2019, 08:10   #1574
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Does EMR harm living organisms?

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And of course the pulsations now carry much more information,
Now this is an interesting territory to explore. The relationship between Thermodynamics and Information Theory.

Quote:
@ all In case not everyone who has read the paper has got the point, what Panagopoulos is saying is that we have to get rid of all wireless communications, now, if we want the human race and the planet to survive. It's not just about 5G. 5G will only speed up the inevitable death of all species on this planet.
And electric lights! I remember that chapter in Downton Abbey where electric light was a novelty and they didn’t want outlets in their bedrooms just in case it was harmful!

Quote:
@ Borjam If you have read the Panagopoulos paper, I think it will answer some of your objections to my arguments. Radar, for instance, differs from mobile communications EMR in that the pulses are regular.
2G (GSM) pulses were regular. The previous analog systems (which were considered harmful as well by the usual suspects) use constant carriers modulated in FM. I bet that if we based mobile phones on light pulses Morse communication using torches would be decried harmful as well.

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And as for Chernobyl, the radioactive substances degrade year on year--and adaptation is possible, though you will get mutations (e.g. blind mice).

Of course the nuclear materials degrade, but some are really long living. The point is, still, watch the last chapter of the new Netflix documentary series “Our Planet” with Attenborough. Turns out that the wildlife population in the exclusion zone around Chernobyl is unbelievable. So, do birds prefer extremely harmful ionizing radiation and they drop dead by the thousands with some tiny radio transmitters? Come on!
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Old Tuesday 16th April 2019, 08:27   #1575
Chosun Juan
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Originally Posted by Borjam View Post
Now this is an interesting territory to explore. ..... pulses ....
Would someone please explain this ? I seem to have missed the bit where 'frequency' became 'pulsed' ...... and how this "pulsed" waveform now seems (as claimed) to have acquired greater powers of destruction .... ?





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