Mis-handling of raptors by ringers/banders? (1 Viewer)

Black Wheatear · Jan 3, 2008

Poecile said:
And the BTO - read the Ringer's Manual.

Photos are usually quite unecessary, and such things as 'record shots' etc are needless personal mementos. Unless the photos are for a specific purpose, such as training (close-ups of feather tracts etc, not a pretty pic of a raptor from 2 metres away) or publicity (which is really the BTOs remit, not individual ringers), then all they do is prolong handling and increase stress and the potential for harm to come to the bird (eg when changing grips etc when trying to present the best view).

The welfare of the bird ALWAYS comes first. That is the golden rule. But, imho, too many forget that in the quest for trophy shots. They're not needed, the manual says they should be avoided, and it makes some of the public question the reason why ringers do what they do. Which makes it bad PR.

I totally agree and I think most ringers that I know or have worked with feel the same.

I also agree that on handling techniques illustrated here, that no damage to the bird has been proven, so folk should concentrate on and stick to facts. Having said that, then I know of no ringers who handle raptors as illustrated, which does not prove one way or the other the perceived so called harmful technique shown.

It is a shame that falconbirder hasn't discussed his favoured technique on this thread, it would have been interesting and I am sure informative.

PaulD · Jan 3, 2008

Poecile said:
And the BTO - read the Ringer's Manual.

Photos are usually quite unecessary, and such things as 'record shots' etc are needless personal mementos. Unless the photos are for a specific purpose, such as training (close-ups of feather tracts etc, not a pretty pic of a raptor from 2 metres away) or publicity (which is really the BTOs remit, not individual ringers), then all they do is prolong handling and increase stress and the potential for harm to come to the bird (eg when changing grips etc when trying to present the best view).

The welfare of the bird ALWAYS comes first. That is the golden rule. But, imho, too many forget that in the quest for trophy shots. They're not needed, the manual says they should be avoided, and it makes some of the public question the reason why ringers do what they do. Which makes it bad PR.

I'm not a ringer, but when I've seen in the hand photos taken it has usually been done efficiently (ie carefully and promptly). Magazines publish photos of birds in the hand quite routinely and I would suggest that the majority of these are "trophy" shots with no research etc intention.

Put it another way you have asked several times for evidence that the photos which started this thread did actually harm the birds (as opposed to allegedly harming them). Can you give me any evidence that done efficiently photography harms the birds?

I don't doubt that prolonged and careless handling in the course of photography could easily harm a bird, but then prolonged and careless handling in the course of ringing would do.

The main risk is in trapping and ringing the bird (and I firmly believe that the benefits of ringing far outweigh the risks). Photographing the bird does increase the risk, but done properly I would suggest that the extra risk is minimal.

John Morgan · Jan 4, 2008

Poecile said:
Photos are usually quite unecessary, and such things as 'record shots' etc are needless personal mementos. Unless the photos are for a specific purpose, such as training (close-ups of feather tracts etc, not a pretty pic of a raptor from 2 metres away) or publicity (which is really the BTOs remit, not individual ringers), then all they do is prolong handling and increase stress and the potential for harm to come to the bird (eg when changing grips etc when trying to present the best view).

There is one category you missed, which is important in the context of establishing subsequent unequivocal I/D for 'rarities'. The old method for doing this was to make long written descriptions of the bird while it was in the hand. Having witnessed and heard secondhand of this resulting in less than 100% condition of the bird on release, I have for many years not done this, preferring instead to take essential pictures for reliable I/D confirmation as fast as possible. I would say that no rarity ever needs more than 10 minutes in hand, though it may need to wait in a bag for longer as ringing of other birds has to be completed in order to devote full attention to establishing its I/D.

KnockerNorton · Jan 4, 2008

John Morgan said:
There is one category you missed, which is important in the context of establishing subsequent unequivocal I/D for 'rarities'. The old method for doing this was to make long written descriptions of the bird while it was in the hand. Having witnessed and heard secondhand of this resulting in less than 100% condition of the bird on release, I have for many years not done this, preferring instead to take essential pictures for reliable I/D confirmation as fast as possible. I would say that no rarity ever needs more than 10 minutes in hand, though it may need to wait in a bag for longer as ringing of other birds has to be completed in order to devote full attention to establishing its I/D.

Indeed, yes, that's valid, and would possibly come under research/training. I have no issue with that and, yes, it's important and valuable. I'm not sure that holding it in the bag for half an hour, taking it to an area where it can be more easily twitched when released, and then holding it up so that twitchers and photographers can get some snapshots, quite comes under that heading though. I've seen this happen several times. The Ringer's Manual also states that nets should not be specifically set up in order to catch rarities that have been seen, but this is also pretty common at observatories so that someone can get a ringing tick. There are also descriptions of birds being chased into the net - eg the Spectacled Warbler at Filey.

John Morgan · Jan 4, 2008

Poecile said:
The Ringer's Manual also states that nets should not be specifically set up in order to catch rarities that have been seen, but this is also pretty common at observatories so that someone can get a ringing tick. There are also descriptions of birds being chased into the net - eg the Spectacled Warbler at Filey.

Trapping rarities has its good and bad sides, and one would prefer that ringers use judgement as to the value of trapping. But the BTO are playing it safe by proscribing deliberate trapping.

My own view is that we know very little about the ability of migrants to re-orient when displaced from their normal routes, and ringing vagrants could yield useful scientific information. A good example is the return to N. Am. by a Ring-billed Duck caught at Slimbridge, and the apparent failure to re-orient by a Dusky Warbler that went SW into Ireland after being ringed on the I. of Man. Ufortunately, one needs a shed load of ringed vagrants to hope to get anything sensible, and that won't happen with random trapping.

Black Wheatear · Jan 4, 2008

I can agree with Poecile and yourself John. Certainly used in the correct way photography can be educational and used as a reference. Some while ago I posted a series of photos showing variants in Yellow Wagtails, these photos were not only useful for reference but illustrated how many races we get during migration this far south. I post one of them here to show my point (excuse the Spanish Sparrow).

rozinante · Jan 5, 2008

Are we then to add education and refference as acceptable justification for increasing stress (and potentialy physical damage) to captured birds?

There has to be a point where genuine data gathering for the purpose of conservation ends and self indulgence begins.

John Morgan · Jan 5, 2008

rozinante said:
Are we then to add education and refference as acceptable justification for increasing stress (and potentialy physical damage) to captured birds?

We should use photograpy for both reasons, but then make sure that ringers are trained in field procedure. Being long retired as a BTO trainer, I am not 'au fait' with how much or how little training in photography is currently included in their national training programme. The last ringer i trained (here in France) had to undergo an examination by his peers from the CRBPO. The various tests administered did not include photography. This discussion has convinced me that it should, and I'll be saying as much to the CRBPO admin shortly.

rozinante said:
There has to be a point where genuine data gathering for the purpose of conservation ends and self indulgence begins.

All of our involvement with birds is self-indulgence. Attracting them to feeders certainly exposes them to predators more than if we didn't feed. Driving to go birding produces a risk of collision between bird and car. Buying bird books requires paper that ultimately causes displacement of virgin forest with managed forest and upsets the existing ecology - together with any bird species totally dependant on that orignal ecosystem. Spotted Owl ring any bells here?

Black Wheatear · Jan 5, 2008

rozinante said:
Are we then to add education and refference as acceptable justification for increasing stress (and potentialy physical damage) to captured birds?

There has to be a point where genuine data gathering for the purpose of conservation ends and self indulgence begins.

In order to gather accurate data means of references are often used to educate and produce accurate inputs. The photos I included were used to assist in the correct ids of Yellow Wagtail sub.species and thereby increase the value of ringing data here. Sorry Rozinante but this is not self-indulgence by any stretch of the imagination.

John Cantelo · Jan 5, 2008

rozinante said:
Are we then to add education and refference as acceptable justification for increasing stress (and potentialy physical damage) to captured birds?

There has to be a point where genuine data gathering for the purpose of conservation ends and self indulgence begins.

Personally, I think that education and reference purposes are amongst the two most important reasons for taking photos of birds in the hand. It certainly beats the old preference and alternative of taking specimens!

John

vermivoracelata · Jan 5, 2008

I agree with both Peter and John on this one.

The montage of flava's that Peter showed is a brilliant tool for identifying the various (and numerous) subspecies and, in my opinion, completely justifies the taking of photographs of birds in the hand.

Peter Fearon

j toon · Jan 5, 2008

I agree with you 100% falconbirder, i was a falconer for many years and if i had seen anybody handle a bird of prey like in the photo`s you have posted WOULD HAVE GOT A BOOT UP THE BACK SIDE.

Firetail · Jan 5, 2008

j toon said:
I agree with you 100% falconbirder, i was a falconer for many years and if i had seen anybody handle a bird of prey like in the photo`s you have posted WOULD HAVE GOT A BOOT UP THE BACK SIDE.

Then the person doing the holding can be grateful you were not standing behind them, especially if they were still holding the bird.

KnockerNorton · Jan 5, 2008

j toon said:
I agree with you 100% falconbirder, i was a falconer for many years and if i had seen anybody handle a bird of prey like in the photo`s you have posted WOULD HAVE GOT A BOOT UP THE BACK SIDE.

A boot from whom, exactly? Bearing in mind that falconry has no regulatory body, and there is nobody to specify approved methods and take away your right to practice falconry if you don't follow them, then you can do pretty much what you like within the scope of the law of the land. You don't even have to undergo any training. At all. And, bearing in mind that your birds are pets and are thus tame, and often hand-reared, and quietly sit on your hand, then it's a somewhat different kettle of fish from restraining wild birds for ringing.

Regardless of the rights and wrongs of various handling techniques, falconers (unregulated, no formal training and handling tame birds) are not best placed to advise ringers (highly regulated, trained for several years and handling skittish wild birds). No more than a chicken farmer is, imo.

Firetail · Jan 5, 2008

Black Wheatear said:
In order to gather accurate data means of references are often used to educate and produce accurate inputs. The photos I included were used to assist in the correct ids of Yellow Wagtail sub.species and thereby increase the value of ringing data here. Sorry Rozinante but this is not self-indulgence by any stretch of the imagination.

Absolutely Peter, but I would expect such a simple and polite answer will receive no response. Too many give free reign to expressions of emotion, but fewer are prepared to accept or even acknowledge a reasonable explanation. You only need to look at identical threads on here to see its the same old people doing the knocking and all very boring it becomes.

rozinante · Jan 5, 2008

John Morgan said:
All of our involvement with birds is self-indulgence. Attracting them to feeders certainly exposes them to predators more than if we didn't feed. Driving to go birding produces a risk of collision between bird and car. Buying bird books requires paper that ultimately causes displacement of virgin forest with managed forest and upsets the existing ecology - together with any bird species totally dependant on that orignal ecosystem. Spotted Owl ring any bells here?

All obvious truisms and all redundant in this discussion of acceptable reasons and methods for trapping and ringing, imo. The fact of our very existence and its impact is hardly justification for the conscious and deliberate decision to take what could be considered to be unnecessary liberties.

Peter... I didn't intend to imply that your pictures in particular where self-indulgent.

Neither did I necessarily mean self-indulgence at an individual level. I was thinking more along the lines of the collective human need to categorise and itemise.

rozinante · Jan 5, 2008

Firetail said:
Absolutely Peter, but I would expect such a simple and polite answer will receive no response. Too many give free reign to expressions of emotion, but fewer are prepared to accept or even acknowledge a reasonable explanation. You only need to look at identical threads on here to see its the same old people doing the knocking and all very boring it becomes.

Missed you post while typing mine.

Not too sure I like the implications of your comments.

Any chance of a reasonable explanation?

Firetail · Jan 6, 2008

rozinante said:
Missed you post while typing mine.

Not too sure I like the implications of your comments.

Any chance of a reasonable explanation?

A reasonable explanation is pretty easy really. If you look through this thread and also others where the value of ringing is brought into question then you will see that there are a number of postings from the same people. Asked a question, ringers on this forum gave reasonable and clear answers, these were subsequently ignored in many cases and remained unacknowledged. These same people then proceeded to ask other questions where answers again received scant or no acknowledgement; it was almost as if they were waiting for the wrong answer in order to score points.

Worse still imo was repetition in the threads, where the same people continually ask the same questions or make the same statements, and continue to ignore qualified and clear answers. I am convinced that one of the results of this attitude is that many ringers either do not bother to answer or go into defensive mode. Who can blame them for loosing their cool?

I agree with you that to categorise and itemise all things is a human obsession. However, the methods used in ringing to identify i.e. label, species and individuals is necessary in order to better understand the subject/s to assist in both protection and conservation of habitats and species. For me at least, the end justifies the means.

JedHarrison · Jan 6, 2008

j toon said:
I agree with you 100% falconbirder, i was a falconer for many years and if i had seen anybody handle a bird of prey like in the photo`s you have posted WOULD HAVE GOT A BOOT UP THE BACK SIDE.

I dont think that such views should be dismissed so freely, it may be true that the training levels are very different but this is a valid comment.
if a falconer, who has a great deal of experience handling birds of prey, says that it is not acceptable, then ringers should perhaps listen. Falconers have a vested interest in keeping their birds in perfect condition ( for displays or hunting) and so should we as ringers. Maybe we can use the expertise in the falconry world to discuss the topic.

How would your advise ringers to handle any birds of prey that are caught, bearing in mind that they are not tame?

how do you hold birds of prey if you want to take a photo of a wing?

do you ever hold falcons, owls with just one hand like this?

How do you typically restrain the feet of your birds when holding- whilst ensuring that they cannot flap their wings.

maybe we can learn something here, but i would not be surprised if agressive responses to a valid post scares away falconers (as it appears to have done with the originator of this post!)

John Morgan · Jan 6, 2008

John Morgan said:
All of our involvement with birds is self-indulgence. Attracting them to feeders certainly exposes them to predators more than if we didn't feed. Driving to go birding produces a risk of collision between bird and car. Buying bird books requires paper that ultimately causes displacement of virgin forest with managed forest and upsets the existing ecology - together with any bird species totally dependant on that orignal ecosystem. Spotted Owl ring any bells here?

rozinante said:
All obvious truisms and all redundant in this discussion of acceptable reasons and methods for trapping and ringing, imo.

I cannot be certain what you are implying here, but I suppose by redundant you mean that if my car hits a bird while I'm going birding, it is a different kettle of fish should my drive be for the purpose of going ringing

Seriously though, what is wrong with ringing if I enjoy it, recognise the potential problems for the birds, and take all the precautions I can to ensure their safety?. I do the same with my feeders - baffles to prevent cats approaching, thick vegetation close-by for escape from aerial predators, shifting ground feed to different spots and using bird-table specific, cleaning powder to avert disease transmission. No doubt you do all these things and more at your feeders?.

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