Pentax Papilio, Zen Rays & Speculation of Admiration (1 Viewer)

A brother had given my mom a Bushnell, 13-8230 assembled in China, parts made in Japan-8x23 FOV 365', bin a few years ago. She has to hold them against the window to steady the view of the birdfeeder/birdbath.

Anywho, her 81 B-day is coming up and I had been looking at the Pentax Papilio 8.5-6.5x21 for a year or so for myself as I was impressed w/under 20" focus. The 6.5 w/393-foot field of view, 10.2-ounce weight in 4.5 by 4.3 inches seemed like just the ticket for me dear ole mudder.

Whilst perusing reviews on the little Pentax someone made reference to chi-com zen glass. What? Being an amateur 'puter sleuth/researchphile I looked deeper and found the largest boyder site in the world containing tid-bits of information on the alpha slayers.

Well, in the finance department anyway. Seems to be no shortage of accolades rained down on ZRs & some feller in PNW w/contacts behind the red bamboo curtain.

Geeze Louise, I thought the 100 clams and change for the flyin' bug bins was a healthy price, so imagine my surprise when see that the people's republic offing's were 3-4 C-notes w/promises of glass gleaned from crystal skulls and kissed by island goddesses adorned in pearls.

I'm all for global trade and bought a Korean car, from the good side of the DMZ, so what the hey. I see the copied design of the ED & ED2, tres tres chic, but even w/discounted/discontinued ED I'm still staring at most of a grand for a couple of mail-order glasses.

I see the new models at a more modest price in the HD and Vista, yet my philosophy in buying budget is to buy the best available.

The ED 8X43 and the ED2 9X36 appeal to me as the ED is bargain bin, std 8X w/healthy objective lens and the ED2 9X36 appears to split the difference twixt 8 & 10 in a semi-svelte 36 tube. Naturally mere speculation that may or may not be the case.

Had I sought greater diversity I might have looked towards the seven powered 36 instead of the nine, but it's quite possible that either the 8X43 or 9X36 will become X-mas fodder.

Are the ED & ED2 held in as high regard as when the ED come out in '09 or have other, more established manufacturers seen the light and bridged the gap of similar quality and price point?

How does ZR come up w/such affordable clean glass? Ancient Chinese secret? Seriously, China is known as the counterfeit capital of the world and a lot of their products fall way short of promise unable to fulfill their marketing hype.

Four hundred samolians might not come close to the middle of the road in available quality, yet there's a lot of bins to be had for less w/o dipping into the waly-world plastic lens toys.

Gents, instill some confidence in me or show me the error of my ways. Are there any bona fide tests other than a kindly review and comparison by hobbyists?

I intend no slander nor do I wish to impune character, but I could write a glowing review claiming ZRs are the greatest thing since sliced bread.

Even if they were to me that wouldn't necessarily make it so, in reality, against similar competitors wares...

Hi Nixterdemus, welcome to the forum.

I don't mean to ignore the latter 95% of your post, but I have to wonder why you are looking at 8.5x and 9x binoculars when your mother is having trouble holding 8x steady. I think you should be looking at something in the 6x-7x range. You will only gain better resolution if you can hold your optics steady, ED glass or not.

I bought my mother a pair of the Leupold Yosemite 6X30s, and she is very happy with them. They have received good reviews in the past, but they have been redesigned and I have not seen any reviews on the new model, but they are available here.

Mike

My mistake and excuse my rambling. I bought the Pentax Papilio 6.5x21 for her. I figured she could hold this lightweight lower power bin well enough and w/close focus she could explore some up close.

I'm trying to find out what I can about Zen-Rays, pros & cons, and competitors in quality & price for myself.

I have no problem holding glasses steady.

Thanks...

Nix,

As the owner of too many bins to include Swaro 7x42s SLCs with Neu coatings as well as the Zen Ray 7x36 ED2s I will readily admit to using the 7x36 far more often than the 7x42s. Sure the lighter weight is a factor but more for me is the wider FOV. Some have commented about edge sharpness not being quite there with the Alpha dogs. May very well be true but for those of us who are apparently not sensitive to that, differences are very very difficult to discern. Frankly had I acquired the Zen-Rays first I very much doubt I would be an owner of the far more expensive Swaros. For me they simply are that good.

Bob

-Intes-Micro MN56/Moonlite CR2/Antares 8x50RACI
-SkyWatcher EQ6 SynScan v3.27/Hanna saddle head/Casady saddle/Losmandy dovetail
-StellaCam II/10" RS monitor/Hauppauge WinTV-USB2/Mogg 0.6X
-Speers-Waler SWA 5-8/10/24.7mm; Russell SWA 13/19mm; Kunming SWA 32mm; UO Abbe 5/7/9mm; TV PowerMate 2.5x
-Criterion RV-6
-Celestron C90 #52268
-Bins: Swarovski 7x42B SLC; Zen-Ray ED2 7x36; Pentax 8x32DCF-WP/9x21UCF; Minox BD6.5x32IF; Leupold 9x35IF Gold Ring/8x30Yosemite;
Binolux 7x35s 11° & 10.5°; Kronos ZOMC 6x30 12.5°

Bob, I thank you for your candid thoughts and frank discussion. I rushed into the fray only to retreat, regroup and reconsider my previously contemplated strategy.

I've decided that I really do not require any objectives in the 40s, yet I'm still trying to thread the needle on the most magnification in the skinniest tube.

A few years back I bought a cheap Swift riflescope in 3.5X10X44 for a .17HMR. I paid 170 dollars new from a small local store. It's OK for the price on the little rimfire for punching holes in paper. The bolt action Savage w/SS bull barrel, 93R17 FVSS, was only around fifty bucks more.

Champagne taste on a beer, domestic though not Sam Adams, budget that extends to all faucets of my meager existence. I realize the ZR has been out for a couple of years along w/others from the Chinese arena.

Not so much paralysis by analysis as ignorance that isn't bliss. I read some glowing reports, yet not being in the hobby I've a problem pulling the string on a Johnny come lately sporting four bills of cost.

I also tend to be a wee bit suspicious/overly cautious of a marketing structure that employs a website and a couple of outlets that also appear to be internet based.

When I can't find specific brands on Amazon, yet notice plenty of others then I start doubting the integrity of construction, research & development, etc. Not everything is sold through Amazon, my Swift scope is an example, however it is a good guideline for price comparison among its peers.

I intend no disrespect to Charles or Zen-Ray products. I'm digging up what I can and being as blunt as possible foregoing walking on egg shells.

The only concrete report that I've found is the, Mid-Sized Binoculars Review For Bird Watcher's Digest, November, 2010 by Michael and Diane Porter.

They scored both the ZR and the Frontier high on resolution. but fit and finish on both was a dismal 2 of 5. I readily admit that the term fit combined w/feel is somewhat vague to me.

Fit I understand, but feel is more subjective. Again, not meant as a slight of any type though I've noticed more than one buy, review/evaluate saying nice, positive remarks only to turn around and offer the glass in the classifieds. I can't help but wonder if I'm missing something written between the lines w/invisible ink.

The older/discontinued ED is at a more attractive price, but then I've read where the focus wheels were a mite loose/slow/rough.

It's quite maddening because just when I think I've researched enough to make a purchase I come across more information that counters my perception.

Anywho, I thank everyone for posting as there's quite the knowledge here to glean. Hopefully the Pentax Papilio 6.5x21 will work for Mom. Though it's not the glass I'm looking for, even though I'm not sure what I want, I do have a better idea of what to look for from sifting through this forum.

Frankly I haven't found the Porter reviews to be of much help in the past. As for fit and finish, no question we're not talking COSC certified uber mechanical chronograph movements with the Zen-Rays. But we're not talking Wally World throw aways either by any stretch. The focus wheel works just fine for me but I will admit it isn't on the same glass bearings my Swaro seems to run on. Doesn't cause me any grief in snapping in focus but it is just a smidgen less smooth. The armor coating, lettering, overall appearance again isn't what you find on the Swaros but it is just fine thank you very much. Heck you're talking a 4X or better price difference! But a 2 on a scale of 5. No way!

Your seeming concern about market penetration or share for Zen Ray I think is a non-issue. Some have expressed concerns about whether Charles will be around in 30 years too. Again I think that is a false herring. You mentioned firearms. Consider Dan Wesson and the 3500 unit annual production of their 1911 pistols. They are arguably the best bang for the buck quality production 1911 on today's market. But they are hard to find as most shops don't carry them. They have been under their current ownership for about 7 years now and their history shows almost a half dozen owners over the years. That put some off? Maybe. Not me

BTW those Papilio bins were a stellar choice for your Mom!

Well Bob, I had to answer as I've received eighteen consecutive E-mail notices of your response. I figured there was some shocking revelation, but alas only common sense and I thank you for taking the time to share.

I'm not saying the review was the gold standard or the one to end all reviews. It was just the only one I had run across and even then it was tailored for mid-size w/ZR being one power less, but placing well w/doubling eyepiece falling two power shy of the rest.

Norinco and Rock Island have proven that the old standard design of John Moses, single stack 45 acp in government length, can be produced cheaply and reliably, half way around the world.

The last pistola I purchased was an Academy Sports black Friday special 2010. Rossi, Brazeltech, six rnd, 3" brl wheelgun in .357 for $199 and it's no S&W, but the price was right.

I'm mostly talking out loud to anyone that'll stop by and provide insight. I've used the review to check prices on the various makes that were modestly priced looking for a bargain.

I'm all over the map on various sizes and saw a $288.29 Vortex Fury 12.5x42 on Google that went off sale and was back to 309 clams. I need that like I need another hole in my head, but was nibbling until I realized it was no longer available at that sale price. Probably for the best though I have a tripod around here somewhere.

I can see how some would be biased towards the ZR & Hawke. Couldn't fault either on resolution, so they used fit and function to take some wind out of their sails and I take that conclusion w/grain of salt.

Reviews are a lot like eating fish and one must work hard at times to separate the meat from the bones. As I chase potential deals I read a little here and there and hopefully learn a little something about optics that would help me.

I'm circling a bin that's under two bills and though it's not the one of my dreams, as w/Rossi. the price seems right. Of course the glass of the Asian semi-gods is only 3-4 bills.

Reckon I'll gnaw on it a spell more and maybe a sign will reveal the chosen one and the meaning of life in one felled swoop..

Nixterdemus said:

Well Bob, I had to answer as I've received eighteen consecutive E-mail notices of your response. I figured there was some shocking revelation, but alas only common sense and I thank you for taking the time to share.

I'm not saying the review was the gold standard or the one to end all reviews. It was just the only one I had run across and even then it was tailored for mid-size w/ZR being one power less, but placing well w/doubling eyepiece falling two power shy of the rest.

Norinco and Rock Island have proven that the old standard design of John Moses, single stack 45 acp in government length, can be produced cheaply and reliably, half way around the world.

The last pistola I purchased was an Academy Sports black Friday special 2010. Rossi, Brazeltech, six rnd, 3" brl wheelgun in .357 for $199 and it's no S&W, but the price was right.

I'm mostly talking out loud to anyone that'll stop by and provide insight. I've used the review to check prices on the various makes that were modestly priced looking for a bargain.

I'm all over the map on various sizes and saw a $288.29 Vortex Fury 12.5x42 on Google that went off sale and was back to 309 clams. I need that like I need another hole in my head, but was nibbling until I realized it was no longer available at that sale price. Probably for the best though I have a tripod around here somewhere.

I can see how some would be biased towards the ZR & Hawke. Couldn't fault either on resolution, so they used fit and function to take some wind out of their sails and I take that conclusion w/grain of salt.

Reviews are a lot like eating fish and one must work hard at times to separate the meat from the bones. As I chase potential deals I read a little here and there and hopefully learn a little something about optics that would help me.

I'm circling a bin that's under two bills and though it's not the one of my dreams, as w/Rossi. the price seems right. Of course the glass of the Asian semi-gods is only 3-4 bills.

Reckon I'll gnaw on it a spell more and maybe a sign will reveal the chosen one and the meaning of life in one felled swoop..

Click to expand...

Nixter:

You seem to be trying to be clever with your post here, but I am wondering about just what you have accomplished.

I am wondering about mixing some optics being discussed and handguns,
and just what is it all about ?

Jerry

Well Jerry, you appear to be the type that quotes entire posts and I wonder what that's about. Have you discovered something inflammatory in my post that you fear I might edit and thusly saving my exact wording for posterity? Would you prefer me to attempt to post dumb, I tell you what, portraying hillbilly or cracker-esque?

I mentioned an inexpensive riflescope as being applicable in certain situations, Bob mentioned a well known 1911 as bang for the buck, w/quality build and continuing changes at the helm, whilst I concluded that global economy combined w/diversity, China, Philippines and Brazil in this example, offered items of lesser quality that are nevertheless functional.

I bolster the notion that acceptable quality, not to be confused w/art or current avant-garde work, can be obtained modestly though one shouldn't consider the later at the former's price point.

If you, or anyone for that matter, consider it a ploy for clever word play or gives reason to contemplate what I may or may not have accomplished in my posts then so be it my friend.
I attempt to play to my strengths and I know little about optics.

Bob, in my haste I forgot to mention in previous post that I am looking forward to the 6.5X butterfly bin. I had almost bought the 8.5X a year or so ago as I was impressed w/field microscope type function, yet for mom I'm quite sure that I made the proper decision w/lower power. She still has the little 8X23 Bushnell if extra is needed and sooner or later I'll buy something for myself.

I have to be careful as money is tight, but I tend to be a little free w/what I have. I decided to start burning wood after a decade hiatus. Dad's old Homelite still ran, but was being taxed w/20" bar I slapped on some years ago and that wasn't enough for some of the felled storm damaged trees. One size leads to another and about two grand later I have an assortment included a 4.5-5 HP Italian journeyman saw and a 6.5HP Husky w/24 & 28" bar that'll handle more than I wish to cut.

I'll make all that money back w/this coming winter wood, yet there's no way I could ever justify spending that much on optics. I just don't use them that often and never replaced the old 7X35 bin that came up missing decades ago. Unlike handguns I can't look at them, work the mechanics appreciating the form and function w/o using them for their intended purpose. I can gaze upon the walnut grain of a Turkish O/U, costing 400 clams new, w/o firing though I admit they're more fun when shot. Yet another example of what I consider a fine piece w/exceptional value.

I look for deals. Last year inside of TSC I noticed a like new Husky 460 being sold as is for 235 bucks. It claimed the centrifugal clutch was bad, yet I had me doubts. I offered 200 and it was mine. After an hour of working on it I had removed and replaced the chain brake properly and the clutch once again worked as intended.

I guess in a rambling, roundabout way I'm saying that I don't know enough about optics to know if I run across a good deal or if I'm being skinned. So, I mix in some junk I do know w/optics and hopefully encourage some conversation from those more knowledgeable than myself. As bad as I want the poor man's Swaros, at 400 simoleons, I need to be able to decide that they are worth the same as a comparably priced handgun, scattergun or chainsaw.

If I'm not going to use them often then I must consider lesser glass at clearance price that's offered and through research hopefully I'll know if that price helps the homely bins become more attractive. I'm not an absolute skinflint and not all my purchases would be considered practical. I bought 25 Lbs of Cajun peanuts the other day and spent 153 dollars on 60 chocolate bars.

That's the same price, every so roughly, that I'd pay at waly-world except I was tired of going there w/them constantly out of stock of Ghirardelli Intense Dark Espresso Escape in 60% cacao. That coffee/dark chocolate mix is somewhat spell binding and though a tad sweet nothing like milk chocolate. I usually prefer Lindt dark in 90% and though no chocolatier I've found a square of each simultaneously to be quite complimentary and satisfying.

If I keep hanging around here maybe I'll develop a passion and scoff at spending under 200 dollars on inferior glass. Well, on second thought it might be hard to elevate myself to a pedestal whilst tooling around in a Hyundai...

What's it all about, Nixter?
What's it all about, you sort it out, Nixter.

Bob

Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's?

Bob A (SD) excluded, I'm besieged by two line wonders the latter a talking mynah.

Nixter:
Amusing your rant. My BS detector went off and I just had to call you on it.

It seems it is all about you, and not much about binoculars.

Jerry

Well, another typical Jerry faux pas though you've upped the ante to three sentences.

You managed to spell binoculars, yet you bring nothing to the table.

A vaguely interesting wandering minstrel speaking in generalities, yet you clutch your elementary rebuttal as if an accomplishment.

No insight, wit or cognitive motor skill. I'm embarrassed for you.

Suffer not to come unto me for guidance though I grant you leave to retreat and withdraw with honour.

You're dismissed.

Ya’ll are funny.

All the sparing with eloquent grammar, never intending to spill blood but willing to wrestle a bit, then no doubt after exaustion leavening as friends.

I’m root’in for the under dog.

I've had the Zen ZRS 8x42 and 10x42, they are great at $210+- sweet as chocolate. A Vortex supplier checked them against his Vipers at $599 in his store and told me he could not tell the differece.

Two C-notes, a Jefferson and some change isn't a lot of scratch. I'd been snooping 'round the ED & ED2 models coz I though perhaps the build quality might be enhanced. As far as I know there's no, or negligible, difference.

I've read several posts from individuals that usually remark about the clarity of the lenses, yet wondered if the integrity of the build is on par w/clean glass.

I've never had the pleasure of examining any. so speculation runs rampant.
Thank you for sharing your experience. Would seem dinero well spent.

I'd offer hope that you'd enjoy your purchase, yet I fear I'm far too late.

I regretfully sent the ZRS back after 30 day trial. The ZRS is not that big but for my hunting need I prefer a smaller bin and hoping to find a high quality 32mm that preformed as good. Well I stumbled up on a new Meopta Meostar B1 8x32 at a bargain, sight unseen and unreturnable. I received the B1 while I still had the 8x42 ZRS and expected the B1’s to blow away the ZRS. The B1’s sell for $799 and are small, just the right size, they are a good bin but are no better than the $209 ZRS ( I think the 10x are $215) except for field of view. Not brighter, not clearer and not as easy of view as far as I could tell for the few days I had them both to compare.

So I sent the ZRS back to continue my search, and because I could not send the B1’s back instead. I also felt there was something wrong with the B1’s, contacted and sent them to Meopta USA. There was a problem and they sent me a new pair. The first ones I had had serial number manufactured in 2009, so much for seller advertizing “new”. The replacement bins has higher serial number by several hundred and they seem to be much better. I just don’t think they are some $600 better- no way. So I’ll probably sell them, try the ZRS 8x32 that’s coming out this year and compare them to the 8x42.

Boy if the ZRS 8x32 is as good as the 8x42, then that would be the end of Zen’s ZRS 42mm wouldn’t it. Guess that won’t happen though.

I expect I’ll end up with the 8x42 in the end. I’ll still have a quality bin at a very good price and no regrets.

Nixterdemus said:

Well, another typical Jerry faux pas though you've upped the ante to three sentences.

You managed to spell binoculars, yet you bring nothing to the table.

A vaguely interesting wandering minstrel speaking in generalities, yet you clutch your elementary rebuttal as if an accomplishment.

No insight, wit or cognitive motor skill. I'm embarrassed for you.

Suffer not to come unto me for guidance though I grant you leave to retreat and withdraw with honour.

You're dismissed.

Click to expand...

Poor guy. Stuck in central Arkansas with all that wit and wisdom. And chainsaws. And peanuts. And chocolate. And...

For what it's worth, you got a mixed response because nobody could wade through that schlock. Don't try so hard and things will be fine.

NDhunter said:

Nixter:
Amusing your rant. My BS detector went off and I just had to call you on it.

It seems it is all about you, and not much about binoculars.

Jerry

Click to expand...

Jerry

I am surprised Kevin has not posted in with his usual admonishment "do not feed the troll". And it did cross my mind to wonder if the OP is somehow related to Brock.

1TLynn
I regretfully sent the ZRS back after 30 day trial. The ZRS is not that big but for my hunting need I prefer a smaller bin and hoping to find a high quality 32mm that preformed as good.

Click to expand...

1Tlynn
Try the 8x36 Bushnell Legend Ultra HD. Smaller than the 8x42 Zen and better overall optical performance IMO.

tom

lilcrazy2 said:

And it did cross my mind to wonder if the OP is somehow related to Brock.

Click to expand...

Tom,

Thank you so much for posting that. The same thoughts had flashed here but I hesitated to post them. Always liked ol' Brock.... I sure miss his wit and perspective. Hope his leg is okay too :t:

As an aside I recently picked up one of those redesigned Celestron C90s marketed as a spotting scope. These have morfed over the years from 1000 to 1200 and now to 1250mm focal length. Factoring the central obstruction of the Maksutov-Cassegrain design it gives the equivalent light grasp of a 83mm refractor. The focuser is a rear cell twist knob now too instead of the whole diameter twist collar of old ala telephoto lens. I must admit to being impressed with the optics given the price. Now they aren't in the same class as my Intes-Micro Maksutov-Newtonian but they're very sharp and clear to the edges. Not as contrasty as I'd like but again being redundant.... for the price.... wow. Tried out some of my 2" eyepieces with an adapter I had handy.... nice wide field of views. As a result have ordered a 2" 90* diagonal to use on this tube at night. It is great as a high power spotter and now should also serve as a modest "grab 'n go" astro scope.

Bob A (SD) said:

Tom,

Thank you so much for posting that. The same thoughts had flashed here but I hesitated to post them. Always liked ol' Brock.... I sure miss his wit and perspective. Hope his leg is okay too :t:

As an aside I recently picked up one of those redesigned Celestron C90s marketed as a spotting scope. These have morfed over the years from 1000 to 1200 and now to 1250mm focal length. Factoring the central obstruction of the Maksutov-Cassegrain design it gives the equivalent light grasp of a 83mm refractor. The focuser is a rear cell twist knob now too instead of the whole diameter twist collar of old ala telephoto lens. I must admit to being impressed with the optics given the price. Now they aren't in the same class as my Intes-Micro Maksutov-Newtonian but they're very sharp and clear to the edges. Not as contrasty as I'd like but again being redundant.... for the price.... wow. Tried out some of my 2" eyepieces with an adapter I had handy.... nice wide field of views. As a result have ordered a 2" 90* diagonal to use on this tube at night. It is great as a high power spotter and now should also serve as a modest "grab 'n go" astro scope.

Click to expand...

Hi Bob,

within a year or so I will get myself the C90 Mak. But I have decided to use it with an 1,25" 90* dielectric prism even for terrestrial viewing.
I do know it's going to be a challenge, but I reckon the view will be better.

You complain about the contrast. Do you have an opinion about how much of the problem that emanates from the crappy 45* prism?

The 2" diagonal you've ordered, is it dielectric or silver coated?
I look forward to reading your impression of the combo. It would be nice with a comparison with an 85 mm refractor too :t:

Best wishes

//L