Extinct Birds (1 Viewer)

delia todd · Nov 15, 2005

The Ruddy Duck/White Headed Duck debate has set me thinking! Oh dear I really shouldn't! :'D

Which birds have become extinct in the last, say, 200 years and has the loss of any of these birds had any impact on the ecology of the area where they were from?

Anybody know?

D

Andrew Rowlands · Nov 15, 2005

Hi Delia, interesting question!

I'll deviate immediately with an earlier illustration :t:!

If we go back to the extinction of the Dodo, we came very close to 'losing' a species of tree because of it. How many species would have been lost with the extinction of the tree ... ?

Andy.

Jane Turner · Nov 15, 2005

Delia

here is help with the first part of your question

http://www.earthlife.net/birds/extinct-list.html

and a couple more

http://www.50birds.com/GExtinct.htm

http://www.kcc.org.nz/birds/extinct/list.asp

Strandman · Nov 15, 2005

delia todd said:
The Ruddy Duck/White Headed Duck debate has set me thinking! Oh dear I really shouldn't! :'D

Which birds have become extinct in the last, say, 200 years and has the loss of any of these birds had any impact on the ecology of the area where they were from?

Anybody know?

D

Interesting question indeed. There seems to be a suggestion from some in the Ruddy thread (and maybe implicit in the question here?) that in deciding whether something is worth conserving, you have to assess whether its loss would result in any wider knock-on damage to the ecology of its habitat. That's not a view I would subscribe to- the loss of the species is impoverishment and damage in itself and any knock-on ecological effect is more damage on top.

KnockerNorton · Nov 15, 2005

The loss of the passneger pigeon will have had an enormous impact on its ecosystem, as a few billion birds would have had quite a large footprint, e.g. restricting other species, creating opportunities for others. Still, much of their habitat is also gone.

Also, for each species lost, you also lose a few other parasite species.

delia todd · Nov 15, 2005

Thanks for the information so far everyone.

If we go back to the extinction of the Dodo, we came very close to 'losing' a species of tree because of it. How many species would have been lost with the extinction of the tree ... ?

Andy - could you explain how the trees were at risk. Or is there some more info on this somewhere?

Jane thanks for those links. I'm going to need a damp towel round my head while I absorb all that information, aren't I? :eat: I've just had a quick look so far - I really didn't know there were so many species involved.

.... the loss of the species is impoverishment and damage in itself and any knock-on ecological effect is more damage on top.

I'm with you there Whiteback. :clap:

D

Isurus · Nov 15, 2005

delia todd said:
Thanks for the information so far everyone.

Andy - could you explain how the trees were at risk. Or is there some more info on this somewhere?

Jane thanks for those links. I'm going to need a damp towel round my head while I absorb all that information, aren't I? :eat: I've just had a quick look so far - I really didn't know there were so many species involved.

I'm with you there Whiteback. :clap:

D

the seeds had to pass through a large birds gut to partially dissolve the outer shell to trigger germination. someone spotted that there were no trees younger than however long its been since the dodo died out and did the math. I think they use turkeys to germinate them now.

edit: did a bit more research - its a bit of an exagerated story:
http://home.conceptsfa.nl/~pmaas/rea/dodobird.htm

http://home.conceptsfa.nl/~pmaas/rea/dodobird.htm

Andrew Rowlands · Nov 15, 2005

http://www.botany.org/PlantScienceBulletin/psb-2004-50-4.php#Dodo is a good breakdown and rebuttal of this theory.

When I first heard of it :news: twenty-odd years ago, this hadn't been published :-C oh well - I'll go look for another theory ...

Andy.

delia todd · Nov 15, 2005

Isurus said:
the seeds had to pass through a large birds gut to partially dissolve the outer shell to trigger germination. someone spotted that there were no trees younger than however long its been since the dodo died out and did the math. I think they use turkeys to germinate them now.

edit: did a bit more research - its a bit of an exagerated story:
http://home.conceptsfa.nl/~pmaas/rea/dodobird.htm

http://home.conceptsfa.nl/~pmaas/rea/dodobird.htm

Thanks for that link Isurus - it's really interesting, I had no idea!

What are people's thoughts on this extract from it?

Scientists are to extract DNA from a dodo for the first time, raising the prospect that the animal whose name is synonymous with extinction could be resurrected. British experts will recover fragments of genetic material from a preserved head and foot kept in Oxford University's Museum of Natural History. The research will identify the closest living relative and may pave the way to the recreation of the species. A team of Oxford University experts, led by Dr Alan Cooper, has already started to build the dodo's family tree by testing the DNA of African and Indian Ocean pigeons, to which it is thought to be related.

Can they? Should they?

Are there any other species that could be cloned to benefit the ecosystem?

D

Isurus · Nov 15, 2005

delia todd said:
Thanks for that link Isarus - it's really interesting, I had no idea!

What are people's thoughts on this extract from it?

Can they? Should they?

Are there any other species that could be cloned to benefit the ecosystem?

D

Can they - doubt it with the dodo - too few bits of material I suspect.

The one I'd think is the most obvious to go for is carolina parokeet - there must be a fair few preserved specimens of that kicking around?

Chris D · Nov 15, 2005

If things keep going the way they are Australia's northeastern rainforests could change a tad by the possible extinction of the Cassowary. Amazing to see what passes through their guts.

johnraven · Nov 16, 2005

In Australia there have been some concerted efforts to recreate the thylacine - or tasmanian wolf. Quite interesting progress, as they can now replicate the bits of DNA that they have from a preserved foetus, but they are a very long way from success. They have thousands of fragments of the DNA but no way of putting them back together again. They need a template from a similar species but they do not yet have the technology to do so. Still, there must be a real chance of seeing these beasts in my lifetime. I believe Oxford Uni have also been looking at the Moa.

Strandman · Nov 16, 2005

johnraven said:
In Australia there have been some concerted efforts to recreate the thylacine - or tasmanian wolf. Quite interesting progress, as they can now replicate the bits of DNA that they have from a preserved foetus, but they are a very long way from success. They have thousands of fragments of the DNA but no way of putting them back together again. They need a template from a similar species but they do not yet have the technology to do so. Still, there must be a real chance of seeing these beasts in my lifetime.

I am a keen follower of that one. I think that the other problem they have is finding a sufficiently similar species to act as surrogate for the clone. So the mammoth cloners may have an advantage...

birdman · Nov 16, 2005

white-back said:
Interesting question indeed. There seems to be a suggestion from some in the Ruddy thread (and maybe implicit in the question here?) that in deciding whether something is worth conserving, you have to assess whether its loss would result in any wider knock-on damage to the ecology of its habitat. That's not a view I would subscribe to- the loss of the species is impoverishment and damage in itself and any knock-on ecological effect is more damage on top.

It is an interesting question, and I largely agree with white-back's post above.

That said, extinction happens without the "help" of the human population and a large bio-diversity at any given time snapshot, is not necessarily an indication of a healthy ecosystem... hmmm... perhaps it is, but the reverse I think is valid.

I haven't responded to the recent Ruddy thread, so I don't know what the general feeling is there, but I would support the eradication of Ruddies, although not necessarily by an outright cull. Pity though, because they are handsome birds indeed, and IMO a bit more pretty to look at than the poor old White-head whom they may threaten and whose attraction are more... erm... of an acquired taste.

As an interesting aside though, I think, I expect that all those who think "increased species numbers = good" would not be in favour of deliberately hybridising Ruddies and White-heads to "create" a third genetic blueprint which could become self-sustaining, even though I expect Nature has done much the same in the past!

gordon g · Nov 17, 2005

Can they? Should they?

Are there any other species that could be cloned to benefit the ecosystem?

D[/QUOTE]

Can they? No, not yet, though it is very interesting science.

Should they? No! Species go extinct for a reason - in the case of the dodo, mainly through the introduction of predators (rats, dogs, cats, pigs) which destroyed the species' breeding success I think.
I also think it is more important to concentrate on prevention of extinction through avoidable means such as the above, rather than try to 'cure' it after the event. People need to realise that when a species is extinct, then that's it - too late! A dead dodo is a dead dodo!

the bird · Nov 17, 2005

delia todd said:
The Ruddy Duck/White Headed Duck debate has set me thinking! Oh dear I really shouldn't! :'D

Which birds have become extinct in the last, say, 200 years and has the loss of any of these birds had any impact on the ecology of the area where they were from?

Anybody know?

D

only just started reading this thread so some body might have mentioned it already - but you could do some research in to the accidental introduction of the Brown tree snake on to an island called Guam and the effects of the bird population it had there - and the impact this population decrease had on the ecosystem of the island. Quite a few endemic bird species I believe became extinct.

Very very interesting.

John.

delia todd · Nov 17, 2005

the bird said:
only just started reading this thread so some body might have mentioned it already - but you could do some research in to the accidental introduction of the Brown tree snake on to an island called Guam and the effects of the bird population it had there - and the impact this population decrease had on the ecosystem of the island. Quite a few endemic bird species I believe became extinct.

Very very interesting.

John.

Ah yes John - I remember a programme about that a couple of years ago. I'll do a search and see if there's any updates since then.

Thanks for reminding me about it.

D

Phalarope · Nov 23, 2005

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Can they? Should they?

Are there any other species that could be cloned to benefit the ecosystem?

If benefit to the ecosystem is a primary criterion, banning the cloning of Homo sapiens just got a boost.

As to bird extinctions, the introduction of predators for which a species is not equipped to survive as a population presents an ethical dilemma: if the predators were introduced by humans (example--the mosquito carrying avian malaria to Hawaii came aboard ships, as did the Brown Tree Snake to Guam) or if the predators were the humans, themselves, (example--Great Auk, Labrador Duck and many, many not extinct, but extirpated from large areas--such as the British Isles), do we have a moral obligation to at least look at the possibility of restoring the species?

On the point of ecosystem change, a minor "gotcha" is that the Carolina Parakeet, hunted into extinction in North America, greatly enjoyed eating cockleburs. We sure have a lot of cockleburs now to pick out of our clothing and skin.

Phalarope

gordon g · Nov 24, 2005

As to bird extinctions, the introduction of predators for which a species is not equipped to survive as a population presents an ethical dilemma: if the predators were introduced by humans (example--the mosquito carrying avian malaria to Hawaii came aboard ships, as did the Brown Tree Snake to Guam) or if the predators were the humans, themselves, (example--Great Auk, Labrador Duck and many, many not extinct, but extirpated from large areas--such as the British Isles), do we have a moral obligation to at least look at the possibility of restoring the species?

yes we probably do - at least as far as reducing our impact on enviromnent, reintroduction schemes as per red kite, sea eagle etc. But reinventing species from salvaged DNA? Just because we can (or at least will probably be able to so in the future) doesn't mean we should.

(I'm not a non-gm fanatic - some gm products are a very good idea eg vitamin A producing rice; but other results of the technology are not, and scientific curiosity should not overule common sense)

Simon A · Nov 25, 2005

white-back said:
I am a keen follower of that one. I think that the other problem they have is finding a sufficiently similar species to act as surrogate for the clone. So the mammoth cloners may have an advantage...

This does all beg the question.....if species have been consigned to oblivion through habitat loss, hunting, interactions with introduced species, etc, then where on earth do you introduce them even if the cloning process could be perfected? The thylacine is a prime example - major loss/fragmentation/degradation of the requisite grassy woodland habitat, so simply insufficient habitat of sufficient quality to support any sort of viable population. We prove ourselves time and again incapable of protecting and conserving the habitats and species that are currently extant - until we can achieve this monumental undertaking, why waste precious resources on the resurrection of species that could doomed to become extinct a second time? Um....apart from the great publicity and PR opportunities for the researchers involved, obviously.

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