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Queen of Spains in Sussex (1 Viewer)

Mention of the Minsmere records prompted me to dig out the Suffolk butterfly atlas to see what it has to say about Queen of Spain Fritillaries in Suffolk. The county totals are as follows:

1995: 6 (2 at Minsmere)
1996: 11+ (9+ at Minsmere, singles at two other sites)
1997: 28, with records from eight separate sites, at least 4 individuals at Minsmere, copulation observed at Thorpeness.
1998: 1, at Minsmere
1999: 1, at Minsmere

Thus while Minsmere was the main site, it was by no means the only site. Breeding at Minsmere in 1996, but not conclusively proven. The species account does not mention the possibility of releases of this species, but the possibility is mentioned for one or two other species. However, a colony of Purple Emperor not that far from Minsmere is known to have resulted from introductions.

Coastal Suffolk has a very dry climate by English standards, and the sightings at Minsmere in consecutive years may suggest some overwintering. The habitat in that area is rather similar to sites where I have seen the species in Denmark and Sweden - see below for one from Falsterbo in September of this year.

None of this is conclusive in either direction but I thought it useful to put the Minsmere records into some sort of context.

Hello Stuart,

I appreciate all the trouble you have gone to. Now looking at the records, they show a total of 17 specimens over a period of five consecutive years, being seen at Minsmere.

That in my opinion,is stretching the bounds of credulity. Strange how there aren't any previous records for the site. If it was that good,surely there would have been earlier records.

Anyone wanting to fool others into believing these are genuine records would surely 'seed' specimens into other areas nearby (at least in the same County) in the hope that these would be seen and reported.

The records of the QoS Frits in Britain go back to the 1700's. I wonder how many there are for Suffolk prior to the 1990's?????????.

If there are none, then I would say that, that should raise at least a question or two.

I'd like to believe these records are genuine, but given the circumstances, I really do have great reservations.

Harry
 
Now looking at the records, they show a total of 17 specimens over a period of five consecutive years, being seen at Minsmere.

That in my opinion,is stretching the bounds of credulity. Strange how there aren't any previous records for the site. If it was that good,surely there would have been earlier records.

If common in the Dutch dunes just across the waters, doesn't seem unreasonable to me - high numbers one season, a bunch end up drifting/migrating/blowing across to the Suffolk coast - breeding for a couple of years, '96 and '97, petering out in subsequent years.

I'd guess if numbers were shown to be high in the Netherlands those years, then odds on the UK ones were genuine.
 
The records of the QoS Frits in Britain go back to the 1700's. I wonder how many there are for Suffolk prior to the 1990's?????????.

If there are none, then I would say that, that should raise at least a question or two.

I'd like to believe these records are genuine, but given the circumstances, I really do have great reservations.

Harry

Hi Harry,

To answer your question, the atlas cites just two 20th century records in Suffolk prior to 1995; singles in 1900 and 1991, neither of which were at Minsmere. This doesn't help the credibility of the 1995 records, but at the same time, in recent years Minsmere has had transient colonies of Ant Lion and Red-veined Darter, so the fritillary situation is not without precedent.

Stuart
 
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Hi Harry,

To answer your question, the atlas cites just two 20th century records in Suffolk prior to 1995; singles in 1900 and 1991, neither of which were at Minsmere. I take your point that this tends to undermine the credibility of these records!

Stuart

It is also worth noting however that the number of persons now actively looking for butterflies, and knowledgeable about them, is many times higher than in centuries past.

A lack of earlier records at Minsmere does not exclude the possibility of earlier records simply being missed or, equally, that the mid-nineties saw high numbers in the Netherlands, some of which ended up in the UK and maybe overwintered and bred.
 
It is also worth noting however that the number of persons now actively looking for butterflies, and knowledgeable about them, is many times higher than in centuries past.

A lack of earlier records at Minsmere does not exclude the possibility of earlier records simply being missed or, equally, that the mid-nineties saw high numbers in the Netherlands, some of which ended up in the UK and maybe overwintered and bred.

I have to take you to task there Jos. There may be more 'recorders' but they're not often out looking for new habitats or trying to discover new things about these insects that were previously unknown. In the main all their knowledge comes from books written by the few that have done the hard work in the field.

Today a very high percentage of them are simply entomological twitchers, all they want is a tick in the box. Until Edward Newmans Illustrated Natural History of British Butterflies and Moths 1869 there wasn't a comprehensive book available to the early entomologists that was reasonably priced so that the average working man could afford it.

Stainton Manual of 1859 (2 vols) only has a few illustrations and wasn't much help.

The early collectors, and most of the early entomologists were collectors, couldn't hop on a bus or drive a car to wherever they wanted to go. Most either had to walk or ride a horse. The early railways eventually helped, but like many roads of the time they didn't go everywhere.

Todays 'entomologist' has access to hundreds of books pamphlets and papers written by experienced field entomologists and the life cycles, habitats and distribution are well covered. Yet so few will actually go out an look for new sites for themselves. I get scores of Emails a year asking where such and such a butterfly can be found, you even see requests on Bird Forum for information asking where the rarer insects can be found.

What the heck is wrong with these people getting off their backsides and going out and finding them for themselves? It's not that hard to do, and it's much more satisfying. There's no end of help available to these people. County lists of vascular plants and trees are readily available for most of the country, soil maps are also available, phase 1 vegatation maps are often available for reference from many County Halls, National Park HQ's. Geological maps are also easily obtained.

The insect textbooks will tell you the foodplants and nectar plants a certain species may need. Consulting local flora maps will show you often on a 2km sq, basis where these plants have been recorded, these can be supplimented by soil and geological maps. Many plants have a preference for certain soils and these are usually associated with particular rocks. There's so many pointers available to anyone who is prepared to work at it. Ideally this can be done in the winter when there is little field work to be done.

The old timers had none of these aids but they discovered so much, simply because they got off their backsides and went out looking. Many of them worked six days a week so perhaps only had one day in which to do field work. It was a very hard slog for many of them.

They were certainly far more active than todays naturalists. My own local Natural History Society is the oldest in the world being founded in 1829 they had an exceptionally large entomological following. Many towns and villages had their own Field Clubs and they organised trips into the countryside at week ends or public holidays. There are hundreds of accounts of such meetings in the old entomological literature. People are far lazier today.

A couple of years ago I was approached by a chap in his 30's who wanted to see Large Heath butterflies, as it happened I was going to visit a site the following day. We drove as far as we could, and when we got out of my van he said he couldn't see any, I told him the site was some 3 miles away over a heather moor, and we would have to walk as there was no alternative. He just wasn't interested, if he couldn't drive up to the site, that was it. I'm more than twice his age with my fair share of ailmants that we OAP's suffer from and I made it. He was still waiting by my van when I got back. I haven't taken him out since. It's not as if he wasn't fit, he played squash, but a six mile walk over heather moor and peat bog was too much like hard work just to see a butterfly or two.

Perhaps people of my generation were used to either to not having things because of war time austerity and we had to learn to do without or have to do things the hard way.

Todays youth, and many people into their 20's and 30's have been brought up to accept as natural all the modern aids available as a right, not even something that has to be worked for, or earned, and perhaps that runs over into their hobbies. Rant over.

RE QSF's I'm not at all convinced that these occurrences are natural.

Oh by the way. A belated Happy Birthday.

Harry
 
The first Yellow Winged Darters recorded in the UK arrived in 1995. 1996 was a lot and very hot summer. A significant influx of insects occurred from the continent during this period including an unprecedented arrival of Yellow Winged Darters. Could this not tie in with a genuine arrival of QoS on the East coast?

Martyn
 
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The first Yellow Winged Darters recorded in the UK arrived in 1995. 1996 was a lot and very hot summer. A significant influx of insects occurred from the continent during this period including an unprecedented arrival of Yellow Winged Darters. Could this not tie in with a genuine arrival of QoS on the East coast?

Martyn

Hello Martyn.

Not quite correct, Yellow-winged Darters have been recorded in my home county, Northumberland from the 1930's onwards, however I take your point in that in hot years there can be significant insect movement. Also in recent years more and more new species are coming into Britain.

The Queen of Spain Frits have not been those insects that come here in vast masses, invariably they come in dribs and drabs. Very much in line with the rarest of the migrant butterflies like the Long and Short-tailed Blue's and Large Tortoiseshell.

It doesn't really have to be a hot year for the common migrants to arrive here. 2007 & 2008 were quite cold with unusually for Britain what could be described as Monsoon summers. Yet Red Admirals, Painted Ladies,
Silver Y's made it here without difficulty. This current year wasn't a particularly warm summer either, but 15 Red-veined Darters were seen on one pond by many observers in SE Northumberland, the most ever recorded in the county.

Migration appears to be caused by numerical pressure in areas of Southern Europe and N. Africa. Insect there cannot have any idea what the weather conditions are like here in the UK, yet they still set off. Favourable winds certainly will help, but in most years the summer winds here in Britain are west to east. I think it is a matter of luck that some migratory swarms hit on a wind blowing towards us from the south east.

Odd things do happen though, the first Long-tailed Blue ever recorded in Northumberland was caught on the 13th March this year in a garden in Whitley Bay. Almost certainly an escape from a supermarket fruit or veg dept. But, if it had happened in midsummer coinciding with the arrival of other migrants, what would the claim be then?

Harry
 
I'd agree that you can't really use the lack of records before 1995 as any sort of guide to the likelyhood of a release. We can use dragonflies as a control group as (so far) no-one seems to be releasing them, and any arrivals can be considered genuine. Since 1995 we've had a flood of new dragonfly species arriving into the country and breeding, whereas before 1995 there were very few. (Although Yellow-winged darter bred for one year in Norfolk in 1946) So we ought to be seeing new species of butterfly arriving - frankly I'm surprised we haven't.

As for UK winters, I've had Camberwells reported in March for the last three years here, and one at least definately overwintered because we saw it go into the barn and we saw it come out! But then we've had a drought this year, while I gather the rest of you had a bit of a wet summer? But yes in general the UK's climate is very different to the continents, which is why we have such a restricted butterfly fauna compared to France or Holland.

There's actually quite good circumstantial evidence incidently that the suffolk QoS weren't released (at least not by the usual crowd) but I don't think I'm at liberty to discuss it. And in any case it doesn't preclude someone turning up out of the blue with a cardboard box in their car.

The problem is that releases mean that we won't know that we've got a new species until we get a small red-eyed, willow emerald damselfly sort of situation: ie a widespread migration along a wide front with egg laying reported from lots of sites. Until that happens, the default position has to be that stuff has been released. (And of course if one locality consistently produces weird records year after year but of different species there is a tendency to flag anything out of the ordinary from there as suspect: the only way I'd believe a record from Briston for example is if I'd flown behind it all the way from Holland - and frankly even then I'd check for strings!)

Of course, we should note that butterfly breeding (as opposed to releasing) is a perfectly reasonable hobby that's produced lots of genuinely good information about life cycles. I know one chap who had over 200 Heath Fritillaries in his shed this year. But he wouldn't dream of letting them out into the wild, since he recognises that it's a species that hasn't got any suitable habitat here. But then there's one chap I know who released 25 Monarchs in Norwich a few years ago. Why? No food plant, completely unsuitable climate, they must have died in hours - completely pointless. And my local chip shop rang me up last August because they'd just had an American Moon moth fly in the door. Oh and I just found this on one of the breeder's forums:
"Some years back I released some of the Common Mormon butterflies into the outdoors, hoping that they would perhaps enjoy a flight before being caught and eaten by the crows. " And this in a thread complaining because DEFRA might impose an import ban on
certain species that might threaten crops if they get out. How dare the govt. restrict their hobby just because it might devistate the livelihoods of a few farmers! Sheesh!
 
I agree completely with Harry on introductions, but I'd like to give Queen of Spain colonies (which I know can be very small!) the benefit of the doubt.

I've been told that a Glanville Fritillary colony just south of the Dutch border was the result of an introduction... that did really spoil the fun for me.
 
1995 was a bumper year for insects from the continent arriving on the East coast, with Yellow-winged, Red-veined and Vagrant Darters all present, the first species in very large numbers.

Butterflies were also involved with unusually large numbers of Camberwell Beauties across East Anglia in particular (not that I managed to see any of them!)

The Minsmere Queen of Spain Fritillaries were in an area with no public access, indeed some considerable distance from any public tracks. Unless the permanent or voluntary staff at Minsmere RSPB were actively involved, it seems to me very unlikely that the QOS were "seeded". While it is I suppose possible that there were subsequent invasions in 1996 etc, it seems to me much more likely that a number of QOS did in fact overwinter. It seems disingenuous to say in the face of these records that "there is no evidence of overwintering": you will never find evidence of anything if you first of all dismiss it out of hand and only then start your survey.

John
 
1995 was a bumper year for insects from the continent arriving on the East coast, with Yellow-winged, Red-veined and Vagrant Darters all present, the first species in very large numbers.

Butterflies were also involved with unusually large numbers of Camberwell Beauties across East Anglia in particular (not that I managed to see any of them!)

The Minsmere Queen of Spain Fritillaries were in an area with no public access, indeed some considerable distance from any public tracks. Unless the permanent or voluntary staff at Minsmere RSPB were actively involved, it seems to me very unlikely that the QOS were "seeded". While it is I suppose possible that there were subsequent invasions in 1996 etc, it seems to me much more likely that a number of QOS did in fact overwinter. It seems disingenuous to say in the face of these records that "there is no evidence of overwintering": you will never find evidence of anything if you first of all dismiss it out of hand and only then start your survey.

John

John,

I'm not disagreeing that 1995 was a good year for migrant butterflies, Moths and dragonflies. I've seen quite a number of 'Good Years' in the last fifty years.

It is easy to assume that butterflies MAY have overwintered, but without actual evidence that proves that fact, it is nothing but an assumption.

Unless actual evidence of overwintering can be physically shown to have taken place, then I submit, there is no evidence. I'm not being disingenuous, all I am asking for is PROOF of overwintering, not an assumption that it has taken place.

Does anyone know in fact just in what stage this species is assumed to overwinter here?

Resident Fritillaries overwinter either as Ova or Larvae, but what is the stage that the QoS Frit does it in?

Ref, the sightings at Minsmere being well away from any track. Well, that's exactly where I would expect them to be. Anyone who is going to introduce a species on the sly, isn't going to do it in the middle of a public car park. Even those numpties have more brains than that.

Harry
 
Hi Harry - I just wanted to respond to a particular comment you made (and hope this isn't off topic too much!) ...

Major conservation organisations don't help either, take the Large Copper and Large Blue. The indigenous races are extinct and no foreign sub species will ever replace them. Yet both English Nature, now Natural England and Butterfly Conservation have actively supported these introductions.

I think we'd need to qualify what "help" means in this context. Of course, we can never bring back our extinct subspecies, but the advances made in our understanding of the ecology of both of these species (especially the Large Blue) has helped with their management on the continent and the techniques used to monitor and manage such species has had quite far-ranging implications in terms of habitat management, especially in Europe.

Anyway - I hope you're over the flu!

Cheers,

- Pete
 
Hi Harry - I just wanted to respond to a particular comment you made (and hope this isn't off topic too much!) ...



I think we'd need to qualify what "help" means in this context. Of course, we can never bring back our extinct subspecies, but the advances made in our understanding of the ecology of both of these species (especially the Large Blue) has helped with their management on the continent and the techniques used to monitor and manage such species has had quite far-ranging implications in terms of habitat management, especially in Europe.

Anyway - I hope you're over the flu!

Cheers,

- Pete

Hello Peter,

I'm over the 'Flu' thanks.

The term 'Help' can have a few meanings. In the context I used the word, I meant that it was of no significance to the occurrence of either the Large Blue or Large Copper that were introduced back into the U/K in a different sub-specific form.

Certainly things have been discovered about the Large Blue that perhaps weren't previously understood, although even a numpty like me, knows that wild Thyme doesn't grow in deep grass, it's always on very thin sparse and stony soils, otherwise it gets choked out. The original sites for Large Blue have been well described in the entomological literature, so recent findings shouldn't be that much of a surprise.

Heck, Frowhawk discovered the life cycle of the Large Blue nearly a century ago. So it's not exactly new.

It appears to me to be a shame that some twenty or more sites have been restored or adapted simply for a foreign sub-species of Large Blue, when there are other, now rare, indiginous British Butterflies that need considerable assistance to continue to survive here.

So, what do we do? Wait until an indigenous species becomes extinct and then re-introduce a foreign sub-species to make up for its loss????? I don't think so.

O/K, I may be a crusty old curmudgeon, but I'd rather see indigenous species helped, rather than have a foreign sub-species introduced to replace a British race that has become extinct.

Rant over, lol.

Harry
 
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Despite previous efforts to save the Large Blue it failed even with an understanding of its lifestyle. It wasn't until after it became extinct in the UK that it was discovered that it needed a specific species of ant Myrmica sabuleti to host its larvae. Before that all that was known was a general knowledge that some species of ants were involved. This was certainly more important than the link to its food plant Thyme which was still pretty widespread. So the habitat is generally maintained for the ants and the butterflies do the rest.

The knowledge gained from this understanding of closely linked species will certainly help to understand the habitat requirements for other species of butterfly and other organisms. For me this is the most important thing to come out of the project.

I believe the Large Blue's that were reintroduced into the UK were tested genetically to enable them to be matched as closely as possible to the former UK population and also tested for diseases. I don't think you can ask much more than that. Casual releases by 'numpties' are a different matter.

One thing's for certain, the ants didn't know the difference!
 
Out of interest, exactly who has the responsibility for assessing butterfly records in the UK? Is there an organisation analagous to the BBRC, with a similar role of assessing submitted reports for identification/origin and maintaining a British List of butterflies?

Although I'd like to think I could name any regular species I might see in the UK, my main area of interest is in plants and birds; I don't know anything about the butterfly-recording world beyond what I read on websites such as this. It's something that's always made me curious, though, ever since an ID book I had years ago mentioned that "around 40" butterfly species had been recorded in Britain over and above the resident breeders. I've never been able to find out what these are, or track down any kind of official list; the occasional message comes up on Birdguides under "insect reports", but I can't remember anything amazingly out of the ordinary. You'd think, though, that if Mediterranean birds can occur as vagrants in this country, butterflies from the same region could do the same.

Also, what is the main objection to non-native species being released; if, say, the Queen of Spain Fritillary was to establish a feral population somewhere, what kind of genuine concerns would there be? These butterflies, after all, must be able to co-exist with our "British" species in their range on the Continent - why couldn't they do the same here?
 
Butterfly Conservation would monitor resident populations by transect and would no doubt notice some introductions and assess likelihood of genuine colonisation but I don't think there is a "rarities committee". Here's a few immigrants/non-breeders or former breeders to visit the uk but I'm sure there are others:
Black-veined White
Queen of Spain Fritillary
Camberwell Beauty
Monarch
Long-tailed Blue
Short-tailed Blue
Mazarine Blue
Large Tortoiseshell
Pale Clouded Yellow
Berger's Clouded Yellow
Bath White

Dave
 
Butterfly recording is organised by Butterfly Conservation via their "Butterflies for the New Milennium" scheme. There isn't a rarities committee, because it's not the focus of our work - which is to monitor the fortunes of our resident species through extensive counts. The odd rarity isn't very important.
Also, what is the main objection to non-native species being released?
You mean apart from it being illegal? The problem is we don't know what effect a species would have - the starling lives perfectly happily in europe - but costs several billions a year as a pest in the US. We need to be careful. But actually non-native species are much less of a problem than unconsidered releases of native species - I've just heard of a five year research project that aimed to investigate habitat management options via transect counts that had to be abandoned three years in, when it was discovered that a chap had been releasing frits into the reserve on the quiet - thus invalidating all the research.
 
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