Dragonfly IDs please (1 Viewer)

Hi all,
this thread just brought to my attention [thanks Ken]. The vernacular name Large White-faced Darter has been suggested by the British Dragonfly Society [BDS] in their list of proposed names which was published in Issue 23 of Atropos [last autumn]. I was expecting a lot of controversy as a result of this but there seems not to have been too much 'fighting' over names. No where near as much as was generated when bird name changes were proposed. This is no doubt due to the fact that there are a lot less people interested in the Odonata than there are birdwatchers. My own personal view is that in a European context the scientific names are the key elements then at least everyone, whether they come from UK, Scandinavia, central Europe or the Med all know what is being talked about.
The adoption of English vernacular names is perceived to be useful in trying to attract more 'lay persons' to become interested in odonata and I can sympathise with that view. On the other hand when I started my interest in dragonflies it was only really the scientific names that were in general use and so I just learnt them. When alls said and done learning and remembering a name is the same whether it is in English or Latin/Greek. But that's just my view - what do others think?
Sorry I've been long-winded but I hope others find it an interesting enough topic to reply.
Just out of interest, still seeing Migrant Hawker [Aeshna mixta], Common Darter [Sympetrum striolatum] and Black Darter [S. danae] about in reasonable numbers in the North Wilts/Berks area. Have attached a pic of the 'business end' of a Black Darter.
Cheers,
Steve.

Nice pic Steve. Black Darter is a species we don't get here so only see it on my travels. Somehow I was expecting the other end. Perhaps I was thinking of the wrong sort of "business" - again!

Hello Steve,
I think your correct in your view that it's perhaps easier for the layman to pick up 'English' names rather than the Romano-Greek scientific names.

I do however, think that the English name has to be fairly short, simple and consist of no more than a maximum of three words. In the early years of the 20th. C. Edward Step and others, tried to give English Common names to the British Bumblebees, but they were so cumbersome, most people never bothered to use them and so they fell into disuse.

It has been said with a fair modicum of truth, that English names last longer than scientific names, but as in the words of that old song, "It aint necessarily so." Some British Butterflies have had several changes of English name over the last three centuries and others have remained untouched.

I suppose much depends on what your happy using yourself, and in conversation with friends. I tend to use the English names myself unless I am involved in conversation with serious scientists. Most of the collectors/ recorders I knew as a boy, used scientific names, and there were frequent arguments between these men over what scientific names were currently in use for any given species because they changed so often. (Often very funny to watch).

Unless you take all of the major entomological journals it's impossible to keep up with changes in scientific nomenclature and many name changes take years to filter down to the average recorder. Even text books get it wrong, as a scientific name which was correct at the time of writing, may be out of date by the time the book is published.

Harry

I don't see Atropos so I cannot add to the controversy (pity!).
As someone with very little experience of Odos outside the UK, I'm not sure my opinion should carry much weight. But I do hope they've not stuck with 'waisted skimmer'
for O chrysostigma as it's one of my favourites and such an ugly name. Another attractive species I saw in Cyprus was "Purple-blushed darter" (Trithemis annulata). I wonder if that name has survived.
Personally, not being amazing at remembering scientific names, I quite like there to be vernacular names. But I prefer them not to be too long. Some of the names on an earlier list were very cumbersome: two-toothed golden-ringed dragonfly and yellow-legged club-tailed dragonfly. I rest my case!!
Ken

Macswede said:

Brian,
The red flecks on the wings of the one I posted may be a colour abberation but I remember quite clearly that the dragonfly itself was bright red. Graham

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Hi Graham,
the red flecks you mention are the 'Pterostigma' and every species has them [not always red though] and can be an important diagnostic feature for certain species.
Cheers,
Steve.

brianhstone said:

Nice pic Steve. Black Darter is a species we don't get here so only see it on my travels. Somehow I was expecting the other end. Perhaps I was thinking of the wrong sort of "business" - again!

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Well it's certainly the business end for any poor unsuspecting midge it's heading towards 3

harry eales said:

Hello Steve,
I think your correct in your view that it's perhaps easier for the layman to pick up 'English' names rather than the Romano-Greek scientific names.

I do however, think that the English name has to be fairly short, simple and consist of no more than a maximum of three words. In the early years of the 20th. C. Edward Step and others, tried to give English Common names to the British Bumblebees, but they were so cumbersome, most people never bothered to use them and so they fell into disuse.

It has been said with a fair modicum of truth, that English names last longer than scientific names, but as in the words of that old song, "It aint necessarily so." Some British Butterflies have had several changes of English name over the last three centuries and others have remained untouched.

I suppose much depends on what your happy using yourself, and in conversation with friends. I tend to use the English names myself unless I am involved in conversation with serious scientists. Most of the collectors/ recorders I knew as a boy, used scientific names, and there were frequent arguments between these men over what scientific names were currently in use for any given species because they changed so often. (Often very funny to watch).

Unless you take all of the major entomological journals it's impossible to keep up with changes in scientific nomenclature and many name changes take years to filter down to the average recorder. Even text books get it wrong, as a scientific name which was correct at the time of writing, may be out of date by the time the book is published.

Harry

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This is all true Harry so I suppose the best policy is to always quote both the vernacular and scientific names the first time a species is mentioned and hope one or the other is up to date!
Cheers,
Steve.

Surreybirder said:

I don't see Atropos so I cannot add to the controversy (pity!).
As someone with very little experience of Odos outside the UK, I'm not sure my opinion should carry much weight. But I do hope they've not stuck with 'waisted skimmer'
for O chrysostigma as it's one of my favourites and such an ugly name. Another attractive species I saw in Cyprus was "Purple-blushed darter" (Trithemis annulata). I wonder if that name has survived.
Personally, not being amazing at remembering scientific names, I quite like there to be vernacular names. But I prefer them not to be too long. Some of the names on an earlier list were very cumbersome: two-toothed golden-ringed dragonfly and yellow-legged club-tailed dragonfly. I rest my case!!
Ken

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The BDS list is not comprehensive as they have chosen to add vernacular names only to those species which they consider will stand a chance of making it to the UK. Orthetrum chrysostigma is not one of them! But Trithemis annulata is and their suggested name is Violet-marked Darter which I feel is far too clinical sounding - I much prefer Purple-blushed Darter which I also think reflects the way the colouring appears on the insect more accurately.
Cheers,
Steve.

steve covey said:

.... Trithemis annulata is and their suggested name is Violet-marked Darter which I feel is far too clinical sounding - I much prefer Purple-blushed Darter which I also think reflects the way the colouring appears on the insect more accurately.
Cheers,
Steve.

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Agree on that one, Steve. Perhaps we should start a lobby group
For those who are not familiar with this handsome beast, there are excellent photos on http://www.libellen.org/epallage/
Click on the rather insignificant 'checklist' link in the text; and then on 'Anisoptera' and then scroll down to Trithemis annulata 'photo'.
Ken

Surreybirder said:

Agree on that one, Steve. Perhaps we should start a lobby group
For those who are not familiar with this handsome beast, there are excellent photos on http://www.libellen.org/epallage/
Click on the rather insignificant 'checklist' link in the text; and then on 'Anisoptera' and then scroll down to Trithemis annulata 'photo'.
Ken

Click to expand...

There is also a photo on the homepage of WestPalOdos Yahoo group |:d|
Steve.

I agree on name changes, I rememember when Aeshna mixta was the scarce hawker.
Of course the main problem with scientific names is hardly anyone agrees on how to pronounce em. My Latin teacher had all initial c's as hard so I see coanagrion as ko-NAG-ree-on, my county recorder does SIR-nag-ree-on, and I've heard KO-an-AG-ron - so I understand the tendency to resort to "azure"

Thanks Steve, and everyone else who has helped to add to my knowledge of Odonata. I've been amusing myself trying to find both the Swedish and English names for all the species I've managed to identify but perhaps Latin is more international in this context.