A new dragonfly for the Isle of Man (1 Viewer)

CJW

Hit-and-run WUM

• Jul 16, 2003

• #1

All,
I took this photo at lunchtime today and think it is a Ruddy Darter (sympetrum sanguineum). If I'm right it's the first ever Manx record. What makes it even more exciting, I've got a photo (not a good one mind!) of a pair coupled!.
Can someone confirm please - I've lent my fieldguide to someone (doh!).
Thanks,
CJ

 

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H

HH75

Well-known member

• Jul 16, 2003

• #2

Hi Chris,
Well done,certainly looks like one to me!
Out of curiousity,what species are on the IoM list?
Could reciprocate with the Irish list.
Harry H

 

CJW

Hit-and-run WUM

• Jul 16, 2003

• #3

Thanks Harry,
The Manx list, as far as I can remember is (in no particular order):
Emerald Damselfly*
Common Blue Damselfly
Blue-tailed damselfly
Azure Damselfly*
Large Red damselfly
Broad-bodied Chaser*
Four-spotted Chaser
Common Hawker
Southern Hawker*
Migrant Hawker*
Black Darter*
Common Darter*
Ruddy Darter*
Red-veined Darter*
Those with asterisks were added to the manx list by me - there's no-one else doing them!

 

Last edited: Jul 16, 2003

pauco

Старлин&

• Jul 16, 2003

• #4

nice one CJ.
just checked my field guide and got to say YES good luck with
record.
bert

 

Colin

Axeman (Retired)

• Jul 17, 2003

• #5

CJW,
It is difficult to see as the right hand side of the thorax is in shadow but there looks to be stripes there which would make it a Common Darter (striolatum). I am not at my usual computer now, this one does not have a good screen, but I will take another look tonight and get back to you.

 

CJW

Hit-and-run WUM

• Jul 17, 2003

• #6

Thanks Colin, I was going off the 'pinched' effect on the abdomen. I know what you mean about the thorax stripes though, but isn't the colour a bit 'vibrant' for striolatum? Dammit, wish I hadn't lent me book out.......

 

Last edited: Jul 17, 2003

Richard Ford

BF Member

• Jul 17, 2003

• #7

It’s defiantly pinched and I think Common darter legs would show some yellow stripes.
As you can see in this picture
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/angela.tyrrell/Common_Darter_Male_Closeup.jpg
Which I don’t think your shot does.
I would go for Ruddy too.
Nice one CJW

Rich

 

CJW

Hit-and-run WUM

• Jul 17, 2003

• #8

Thanks Rich, I'm still fairly confident but without my fieldguide.....
I've looked at that link and the photo shows thorax stripes on Common Darter, but I can't see any on the available photos of Ruddy. But the colour is too scarlet on this insect (Common Darter tend to be more 'orangey' don't they?).

 

Last edited: Jul 17, 2003

Richard Ford

BF Member

• Jul 17, 2003

• #9

Yes it’s a bit of a worry, it does appear coloured right, I have not seen to many Ruddy Darters myself, and I am no expert. I am not sure if the black marks on the last segments should be darker.
But then they don’t always look like they do in the books do they.
I know that the colour of the legs is a good feature for separating the two species and the legs on yours lean toward Ruddy Darter for me.

Rich

 

CJW

Hit-and-run WUM

• Jul 17, 2003

• #10

Hmm, not at all sure now.
As you can see the abdomen is definately pinched from the 4th. segment which is supposed to be diagnostic of Ruddy - it's also a vivd scarlet colour. If it hasn't reached full maturity then the black spots on the end segments might not be as obvious and the overall colour will get even brighter. But then the legs clearly show yellow/pale stripes......and then there's the thorax stripes ....
So that's two features for Ruddy - colour and pinched and two features for Common - legs and thorax stripes .
Please tell me they don't hybridise........

 

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Richard Ford

BF Member

• Jul 17, 2003

• #11

Arrrr, I am confused now, looking at some pictures of mine.
The one, below which I always took to be a Common Darter, though perhaps not as rich in colour as yours, is similar and does not really have pale legs, perhaps I misidentified it myself.
http://members.lycos.co.uk/digitalwildlife/odonata/img/Cmdartermallw.jpg

Here is all I have to offer from my picture, an immature Common Darter showing the pale leg strips well.
http://members.lycos.co.uk/digitalwildlife/odonata/img/comdartimm21-06-03195lw.jpg
Three shots of immature Ruddy darter.
http://members.lycos.co.uk/digitalwildlife/odonata/img/ruddarter21-06-03011lw.jpg
http://members.lycos.co.uk/digitalwildlife/odonata/img/ruddarter21-06-03016lw.jpg
http://members.lycos.co.uk/digitalwildlife/odonata/img/ruddarter21-06-03019lw.jpg
Showing dark legs and also note how dark the dark marking are.
BTW I realise that this one does not appear that pinched, but I am assured that it is a Ruddy Darter.
Sorry they are not adults.

Rich

 

Richard Ford

BF Member

• Jul 17, 2003

• #12

Sorry CJW I am now leaning towards Common Darter.
I will put a post out on Dragonflies UK, I’m calling for backup. ;-)

Rich

 

CJW

Hit-and-run WUM

• Jul 17, 2003

• #13

Hmm so am I. Although, the one you took to be Common Darter looks very like 'my' insect and I would have said that it was a Ruddy from the body pinching (although not quite as pronounced)and leg colour. But once again, it shows thorax stripes ......which, according to Colin, is diagnostic of Common.
There are plenty of photos on the web of Common and none of them show this body pinching mallarky......

 

Last edited: Jul 17, 2003

Surreybirder

Ken Noble

• Jul 17, 2003

• #14

The pinched effect may be misleading as this is a side view. If you look at the shadow, the pinching is not at all obvious--but this is not conclusive. Immature male ruddy darter may have yellow marks on the side of the thorax.
Have you got any other shots, however poor that might give some more clues?
(Looking at the range map in Brooks and Lewington, the Isle of Man is within the range of ruddy, even though it has not yet(previously?) been recorded there.)
I remain unconvinced but am open to persuasion!

 

Last edited: Jul 17, 2003

CJW

Hit-and-run WUM

• Jul 17, 2003

• #15

Yes, I know we are within the range of Ruddy (we seem to be surrounded by the things), but I have spoken to the curator of the Manx museum this morning and she has confirmed that there are no Manx records of Ruddy. Yet.
Interesting to hear that immature Ruddy can show thorax spots. All I can tell you is that I only photographed the insect because I was struck by it's vivid colour and pinch abdomen when seen from above. The pinching was definately there in dorsal view. No more photos at the moment, sorry.

 

CJW

Hit-and-run WUM

• Jul 17, 2003

• #16

Have a look at these:
http://www.greglasley.net/ruddydart.html
This is identified as a Ruddy Darter but has distinct yellow lines on the legs and striping on the side of the thorax.
http://www.habitas.org.uk/dragonflyireland/5645_p.htm
This is a Common Darter and shows really bright red pterostigmata and 'zero' pinching.
http://www.brocross.com/dfly/species/sangui.htm
This Ruddy Darter shows the 'ginger' hairs on the thorax similar to 'my' insect.

 

H

HH75

Well-known member

• Jul 17, 2003

• #17

Hi Chris,
Firstly,interesting to note the similarities and differences between the dragonfly lists of Ireland and the IoM:we haven't had Broad-bodied Chaser here since the 19th century and also only one record of Southern Hawker(found dead in Cork city in 1989:interestingly,I remember about that time a large hawker sp.landed on my shirt while I was crossing the river in the city...).
Surprised that you haven't had Emperor yet,as the species has colonised Ireland in recent years and isn't tied to any specific scarce habitat.Of the species that you've added,how many are breeding?
Secondly,despite growing experience and a good fieldguide,I still find darters tough at times:sort of a dragonfly version of Reed/Marsh/Blyth's Reed?;-)Looks most like Ruddy,but I DID notice the(apparent?)yellow on the legs...
Harry H

 

Last edited: Jul 17, 2003

CJW

Hit-and-run WUM

• Jul 17, 2003

• #18

I think with the exception of Southern and Migrant Hawkers, Red-veined Darter and possibly Ruddy darter they are all breeding.
There have been quite a few claims of Golden-ringed, but every one I have investigated so far has turned out to be female Common Hawker.
I forgot about Emperor, there was one picked up dead on top of someone's wardrobe a couple of years ago - God knows how it got there though! Or how long it had been there.

 

Richard Ford

BF Member

• Jul 17, 2003

• #19

Funny I looked at all those too CJW, and had the same thoughts, I don’t think the first one is a Ruddy darter at all.
But I am quite confused by this now…….
I am actually leaning toward Ruddy Darter again.

I used to be indecisive, but now I don’t really know if I am or not……….!!! ;-)

 

H

HH75

Well-known member

• Jul 17, 2003

• #20

Hi Chris,
Of course,Emperors land on top of wardrobes ALL the time...;-)
Agree with Richard,that first photo that you included a link to is a male Red-veined Darter,IMHO!
Migrant Hawker should breed on IoM soon,I'd say!Have you had many records of BB Chaser and/or S.Hawker?
Harry H