Milvus milvus or Milvus migrans (1 Viewer)

Matteo Cargasacchi · Jun 27, 2016

Hi all,

just up to clarify some doubts about this kite, seen yesterday in Bosco delle Fontane near Mantua (IT). It's an old wood with one of most important population of black kites in northern Italy.
This one was different, I'm in doubt between a subadult milvus milvus or an extremely forked tail milvus migrans.

all hints are welcome!

Thanks,

Matteo Cargasacchi
Venice - Italy

Nutcracker · Jun 27, 2016

With that much fork in the tail, Milvus milvus. Unless it is a hybrid (hybrids between the two are known, though perhaps mainly in captivity).

Sangahyando · Jun 27, 2016

I agree with Nutcracker, it looks relatively normal for a Red Kite, IMO.

njlarsen · Jun 28, 2016

I remember people telling me about at least one mixed pair in Skaane, SW Sweden. Presumably they had hybrid offspring (what was the probably only black kite in that area to do?)

Niels

tconzemi · Jun 28, 2016

that's a weird bird, pretty good for Red Kite, especially forked tail with fine barring of inner tail feathers only and greyish cast; breast colour pretty right for RK too even if the black central part looks rather fine for RK but whitish window of inner primaries looks far to boldly barred for RK. And I cannot see any feature of a second calendar year bird. Also the wing formula is closer to BK.

P.Sunesen · Jun 28, 2016

I mostly agree with Tom.
For me at first sight a pretty typical adult Black Kite on everything but the tail, but on closer inspection the underwings do have intermediate traits.

Conclusion: a hybrid?

Peter

jogresh · Jun 28, 2016

Hmmm, as it happens i'm currently monitoring a red kite nest due to some nearby development work. To me, the inner wing - from the carpals to the body - seems rather broad for red kite, almost bulgey.

Matteo Cargasacchi · Jun 28, 2016

Thank's to all. All your comments are interesting and let me learn a lot.

Some words about the place, it's well knows as a black kite nesting area, red kites specially during summer are extremely rare and this one allow many discussions with local birdwatchers. We (observers) said initially red kite, but general opinion is black kite like spanish ones. I never saw one with such a forked tail, but someone says they exists.
One point is the fingers number, 6 (black) or 5 (red)? Is the tail shape more important?

I keep feeling quite confused, red kite, black kite, hybrid, all options seems available. Love this way of birdwatching!

Matteo

Nutcracker · Jun 29, 2016

Just been checking loads of photos online - the yellow iris of this bird supports Red Kite (dark brown in Black Kite) :t:

P.Sunesen · Jun 29, 2016

Nutcracker said:
Just been checking loads of photos online - the yellow iris of this bird supports Red Kite (dark brown in Black Kite) :t:

What an odd coincidence

If that's really so, you've only bumped into loads of young birds or younger adults of the European, nominate subspecies*

You see, it's so that all European adult Black Kites (and the OB is an adult) end up with a yellowish white iris:t:

It does take several years to achieve this stage*, but when looking at pictures of adult Black Kites I found dozens with an all pale iris in a mere 30 seconds.......

http://www.netfugl.dk/pictures.php?id=showpicture&picture_id=16479

https://www.google.dk/search?q=blac...UIBygB&biw=1024&bih=672#imgrc=n4Ljw3PnNVQ78M:

*what might have mislead you is the fact that adults of the eastern subspecies (lineatus, govinda etc.) do not sport a pale iris, no matter how old they are.

Peter

Nutcracker · Jun 29, 2016

P.Sunesen said:
*what might have mislead you is the fact that adults of the eastern subspecies (lineatus, govinda etc.) do not sport a pale iris, no matter how old they are.

Yes, most of them were eastern subspecies - seems to get photographed a lot more.

But worth adding that Collins field guide also shows a dark eye for BK.

P.Sunesen · Jun 29, 2016

Nutcracker said:
Yes, most of them were eastern subspecies - seems to get photographed a lot more.

But worth adding that Collins field guide also shows a dark eye for BK.

Not in my copy, the English second edition with a pair of Bullfinches on the cover.

Not the most clearcut showing of bright yellowish white iris, but nevertheless clearly depicted with a pale iris (even visible on the even smaller illustration of the flying adult).

So no need to punish Dan Zetterström this timeB

Peter

Nutcracker · Jun 29, 2016

P.Sunesen said:
Not in my copy, the English second edition with a pair of Bullfinches on the cover.

Not the most clearcut showing of bright yellowish white iris, but nevertheless clearly depicted with a pale iris (even visible on the even smaller illustration of the flying adult).

So no need to punish Dan Zetterström this timeB

Peter

Maybe my eyesight - when I looked with a 10x magnifier (edition with Arctic Tern on front), it is slightly paler for the adult, tho' not as pale as on the Red Kite pic; but without magnification, looks dark (unlike the Red Kite pic).

dantheman · Jun 29, 2016

Just to be clear - consensus is that this is probably a hybrid? Or definitely a hybrid? ... Or ... ?

P.Sunesen · Jun 29, 2016

Quote Nutcracker:
"Maybe my eyesight - when I looked with a 10x magnifier (edition with Arctic Tern on front), it is slightly paler for the adult, tho' not as pale as on the Red Kite pic; but without magnification, looks dark (unlike the Red Kite pic)."

Yes, the drawback of such tiny illustrations is that these misperception pop up regularly within the birding community.

Actually the iris of a full adult Black Kite is even paler yellow than that of an adult Red Kite.....

Another example is that the leg colour of Lesser Whitethroat is often claimed to be black (which of course is nonsense since they are lead grey), because the illustration in Collins didn't get this fact right.

Perhaps Dan Zetterström didn't have enough personal experience with birds in the hand and leaned more towards photos where the grey legs of said Sylvia often come across as almost black due to less than perfect light conditions?

That said we must be grateful for the Collins Guide which is so unbelievably superior to the bulk of available field guides.....

Peter

P.Sunesen · Jun 29, 2016

dantheman said:
Just to be clear - consensus is that this is probably a hybrid? Or definitely a hybrid? ... Or ... ?

Not to appear overly orthodox, but I'd rather leave any final decision (if such one is even realistically possible) to the Grand Old Man of raptors and their hybrids, Dick Forsman.

If you do post these pictures to him (or simply alert him to this thread) we shall probably all be interested to learn his answer.

Peter

tconzemi · Jun 29, 2016

P.Sunesen said:
Not to appear overly orthodox, but I'd rather leave any final decision (if such one is even realistically possible) to the Grand Old Man of raptors and their hybrids, Dick Forsman.

If you do post these pictures to him (or simply alert him to this thread) we shall probably all be interested to learn his answer.

Peter

Fully agree, email at dickforsman.com

Matteo Cargasacchi · Jun 29, 2016

Ok, I'll write to Forsman. thank's all!

Matteo

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