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Kowa 663 (2 Viewers)

iebirdie

Well-known member
Greetings to all, I am new to birdforum, and have to say, very impressed !

I am in the market for a new scope, and key criteria are portability/compactness with fairly good optics for general viewing (as opposed to digiscoping).

The Kowa 663 is about my price range and seems to fit the bill. I have heard though that the 30x tsn eyepiece is "old" technology and there are better eyepieces on other brands. A specialist birding optics retailer I spoke with the other day said Kowa "have had their day...". What does anyone think of the K 663?

Also, the Leica 62 (non apo) is roughly the same price as the K663. Does the K663 (with ED/fluorite glass) beat the non-apo Leica 62 ? Or are Leica's optics better even in the non-apo 62 ?

Any other suggestions in that price range ?

I am aware of all the advice to stretch a bit more up to, say an apo Leica 62, but assume for the moment that K663/Leica 62 non-apo represents max budget - how do they compare ?

thanks for info
cheers
Niall
 
Hi Niall,I see you are new,so welcome and I hope you enjoy the site.

I recently was in a similar dilemma and so will recount my experience,but would stress that it is essential to try these out for yourself,as everyone here seems to agree that all 'eyes'are different.
Robin M had kindly suggested Kay Optical in Morden,so I went to their H.Q. to test scopes as they were the nearest for me and in fact they could not have been more helpful.

I had already decided to buy a lightweight scope with zoom lens and the ATS65HD Swarovski was favourite.
They lined up 3 scopes on tripods in a row,the ATS65HD,the Kowa 663 and the Leica Apo 62(so I thought)All with 20-60 (equivalent)zoom lenses.
After a thorough look through all three,the Kowa,though good ,was eliminated.
An hour or so later I told the chap from Kays I could not really perceive any noticeable difference optically between the other two,but the smaller size of the Leica would sway it for me.
He removed it from the tripod and I suddenly noticed it said Televid rather than Apo Televid on the lens.
After much kerfuffle it turned out that it was a non-Apo I had been looking through.
Another was produced which was Apo and I could hardly discern any difference betwen the 2 Leicas,side by side;perhaps a slightly sharper image at full zoom on the Apo?
Kays man suggested that perhaps it would be only in poor light that I would notice the difference and I thought, would I always wonder?
So I bought the Apo and have been very impressed with it in the field.
The 62 non-APO was for me much superior to the Kowa.

The advice on this Forum has always been to try out first and I would certainly endorse that view.

Hope this may be of help.
 
Regarding the difference between the APO and non-APO Televid, my understanding is that you will see the difference when viewing a dark bird in a tree against a bright sky. The non-APO will probably show fringing. The APO will show none, or just a hint. Same goes for a bird in flight, but maybe you are less likely to follow birds in flight with a scope? (I do it with a 20x eyepiece without problems.) I have also seen fringing when watching ducks on a lake through a non-APO scope. Water seems to bring out the fringes.
 
I re-issued myself this year with all round new optics ! I went for Leica 10x42 BN bins ( amazing !! ) and a Kowa TSN 663 ( fluorite lens with 27x WA ) ... I must admit to not being ' comfortable ' using scopes , always prefer to use my bins where-ever possible but as you know scopes are an essential piece of birding equipment . To be honest I really like the Kowa , I had a go with a friends Leica scope and found it slightly disapointing ( certainly compared with the bins ) and I had a go with a Zeiss at Martin Mere when I went to see the Red-breasted Goose ( thankyou to the birder who lent me his scope ) and found this rather clumsy scope to use .. no , I think , for me certainly , that I chose well with the 663 , small , compact , clear and easy to handle ... good all rounder !
 
Have you posted any photos you've taken with the 663? Would really like to see them ... I'm considering a 663.

Thanks,

Joe



jada dulo said:
I re-issued myself this year with all round new optics ! I went for Leica 10x42 BN bins ( amazing !! ) and a Kowa TSN 663 ( fluorite lens with 27x WA ) ... I must admit to not being ' comfortable ' using scopes , always prefer to use my bins where-ever possible but as you know scopes are an essential piece of birding equipment . To be honest I really like the Kowa , I had a go with a friends Leica scope and found it slightly disapointing ( certainly compared with the bins ) and I had a go with a Zeiss at Martin Mere when I went to see the Red-breasted Goose ( thankyou to the birder who lent me his scope ) and found this rather clumsy scope to use .. no , I think , for me certainly , that I chose well with the 663 , small , compact , clear and easy to handle ... good all rounder !
 
Kowa UK seem to have lost their top spot status for some odd reason. I think they are changing their distributor and taking an age over it - maybe that's why? Their optics are as good as ever, I'm sure - lots of birders swear by (rather than at) their Kowas.
 
Last edited:
yes Steve

and if they could put a 65mm ED objective into the incredibly small and light 60mm 614 series they'd surely be unbeatable in the 'small' scope range.......
 
Interesting how Swaro and co have moved the "wanted" diameter up by 5mm? I wonder if it makes any practical difference?
 
My understanding is that the 6xx Kowa scopes do not use the zoom that the Kowa 8xx scopes do. And, that the zoom for the 6xx Kowa's lacks sharpness at higher powers?
 
I have the Kowa 660 series brochure and it lists a total of 9 available eyepieces, with these 4 listed as High-Grade Eyepeices:

TSE-21WB, 20XW
TSE-14W, 30XW
TSE-Z4, 20x-60X
TSE-Z6, 20X-40X

The TSN 663 Prominar w/TSNZ4 eyepiece sells for $949.00. It's quite impressive, though I wish the price was lower.
 
The wide angle eyepieces and the 20-60x zoom are all highly regarded. I think the zoom does not offer as wide a view as, say, the Swarovski or Zeiss equivalents but in every other way, I suspect it is an excellent eyepiece.
 
Bob might well be right there - but I did think that the new Kowas all had interchangeable eyepieces. Certainly regarding the older TSN and TS series cannot take the new eyepieces.
 
Kowa has certainly not had their day. This so called specialist does not seem very specialist to me. I have just taken the time to view through several spotting scopes, to choose one for birding. Most of the time I use larger APO astronomical telescopes or Maksutovs for casual birding, I just got tired of not being able to use them in a hide environment.
I tried several spotting scopes, rubber armoured Leica APO 62mm (great fan of Leica, have owned a few Leica binoculars before), Nikon EDIII 60A (excellent spotting scope), Swarovski 60mm APO and Zeiss 65mm APO and the Kowa 663 ED 66mm.
I chose the Kowa because I thought it was not outperformed by the others, and was lighter and less expensive than the others for the same performance. The 30xW Kowa eyepiece is perhaps not as modern as some of the wide angle designs around, however it still performs very well. I thought the new 30xW Nikon eyepiece (for the 60mm Nikon) was very contrasty, and I am well aware of the superb Leica eyepieces, I use the 22mm, 14mm and 11mm (20xW, 32xW and 40xW) with my astronomical telescopes.
Just out of interest, I have judged the 663 with various Orthoscopic and even Monocentric design eyepieces at high power (100x) just to see how well the little Kowa holds up. It holds contrast very well. It provided a good crisp image of the moon with a TMB 4mm Monocentric eyepiece (approx. 100x).
I work with optics so tend to look for specific areas of performance to judge merit.
There is a lot of nonsense written by specialists, amongst others. The simple truth about small 60mm APO spotting scopes is that all of them are very good these days. The weak link in the chain is always prism design/quality, and optical collimation (alignment of the objective lenses, any focussing lenses and the prisms). There are far more meaningful differences in performances between collimated and poorly collimated scopes, than between collimated scopes of rival brands.
My advice is choose which one you like the look and feel of the best, the optics in all higher quality APO spotting scopes are all of high order. The one that is the quickest and easiest to use should be your choice.
Best regards
Chris
 
Just picked up this old thread as i'm considering the Kowa 664 ED. I was looking at some of the Opticron scopes and the Leica Televid 62 (non-APO) as my budget can't stretch much beyond £500.

The Leica, however, seems to have suffered from a recent quite large price hike which has taken it to almost £750 with the 16-48x zoom. The Opticron HR66GA ED with 20-60x zoom is about £650.

Anyway, i was pricing up the Kowas and the 664 with new 20-60x zoom and stay-on case only costs £650.

Does this seem reasonable?
Are Kowas as good as Opticron (I realise that it wouldn't match up to a Leica APO)? Would i be better stretching to £750 for the non-APO Leica? (Please don't suggest stretching even further to the APO version - that's out of the question!)

I'm currently using an Acuter scope which isn't particularly good - and it's too bulky - i want something that is reasonably compact.

Is there anyone out there using the Kowa 663/664?
 
Go for the Leica, almost as good as good as the Apo version in my opinion.
I tested them together and the Kowa was a distinct third place.
 
well the Leica has suffered a big price rise hasn't it.

Although over your budget at £828 the Nikon FSIIIED with zoom could be considered. And I believe admin can do you a deal on Zeiss. You may want to contact them for a price on the Zeiss 65 with zoom.

Never used the Kowa it didn't get a stunning write up on Alula. For some reason the zooms on Kowa 60mm scopes are different from the 80mm.

The HR66ED is an excellent scope. no idea what the new GS665ED is like though.
 
rezMole said:
my budget can't stretch much beyond £500.

Are Kowas as good as Opticron (I realise that it wouldn't match up to a Leica APO)? Would i be better stretching to £750 for the non-APO Leica? (Please don't suggest stretching even further to the APO version - that's out of the question!)

Is there anyone out there using the Kowa 663/664?

Hi,

Ultimately, it's all down to personal preference. Go to a reserve where a dealer is holding an optics day and try them. All the "big name" brands are very good these days, though some are more fashionable than others. Kowa seems to have gone out of fashion at the moment, this is fine by me because it means I got my Kowa 663 for not a lot of money at all. I'm very pleased with it but others have different preferences.

As well as optical performance, a major factor is the "handling".
Do you find the controls easy to use?
Can you find the image easily in the eyepiece?
Do you find the image comfortable to view?
Can you use the eyecup easily?
Do you get eye strain using it?

These, and many other factors will be as important, if not more so, than absolute optical performance. I looked through an APO Leica at a dealer's optics day on my local reserve. Whilst the image was very, very good indeed, I simply found it uncomfortable to use and view with. I have a fairly serious eye prescription but don't view using my specs, so I'm an oddball case. Everyone is different and others may well reply that they don't have any problems, but for me, the Kowa was optically not quite as good, but the better scope overall because I find it comfortable to use. the only way you can tell is to get out and try the different models you have shortlisted.

I would say that there is likely to be very little difference optically between the Opticron and Kowa equivalent models, they are both aimed at the same market sector and it will boil down to personal preference.

As you say your budget is £500, I would say that the Leica is not worth it. We are into the law of diminishing returns here, a scope costing 50% more will not be 50% better. A fairly severe test is to look at tree branches silhouetted against a bright sky and compare the extent of coloured fringing between the different models. This is where ED/APO models really show the differences to the non-ED ones.

Sorry if this is a non-answer,

Duncan.
 
rezMole said:
Just picked up this old thread as i'm considering the Kowa 664 ED. I was looking at some of the Opticron scopes and the Leica Televid 62 (non-APO) as my budget can't stretch much beyond £500.

The Leica, however, seems to have suffered from a recent quite large price hike which has taken it to almost £750 with the 16-48x zoom. The Opticron HR66GA ED with 20-60x zoom is about £650.

Anyway, i was pricing up the Kowas and the 664 with new 20-60x zoom and stay-on case only costs £650.

Does this seem reasonable?
Are Kowas as good as Opticron (I realise that it wouldn't match up to a Leica APO)? Would i be better stretching to £750 for the non-APO Leica? (Please don't suggest stretching even further to the APO version - that's out of the question!)

I'm currently using an Acuter scope which isn't particularly good - and it's too bulky - i want something that is reasonably compact.

Is there anyone out there using the Kowa 663/664?

Hi

I have been using a Kowa 663 for the last 12 months. Since then I have replaced all my orginal TSN eyepieces for the new 20X W, 30X W and just recently the new 20-60X Zoom. The optical quality of the new eyepieces have been greatly improved over the old eyepieces. The 20-60X has now become my standard eyepiece.

I find the 663 to be lighter and compact compared to the TSN1, which it replaced. The 66mm objective lens as proven very capable , even in low light.

I did compare the 663 against the Leica 62 in a field test and could not find any real difference. All I will say is if you are going to compare the 663 against any of the other scopes mentioned in this thread, is to ensure you test the 663 with the new eyepieces.

Ray
 
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