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Birders plane crash

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Old Saturday 5th October 2019, 20:12   #1
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Birders plane crash

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...x1vXNSRh-4nyjQ
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Old Saturday 5th October 2019, 22:12   #2
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Any more reliable sources than the Daily Fail, please?

I refuse to give any click count to their disgusting neofascist website, too.
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Old Saturday 5th October 2019, 22:16   #3
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Any more reliable sources than the Daily Fail, please?

I refuse to give any click count to their disgusting neofascist website, too.
That's probably a valid point (made in typically disarming fashion )

I like their interface, and consider myself immune to whatever slant they're putting on stuff. However the last couple of major news items I've been into been quite aware how blatantly one-sided they were in news dissemination.

Which news websites should I be looking at?
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Old Saturday 5th October 2019, 22:18   #4
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Soz for the aside this early in. A bit more solace for those involved perhaps in terms of sentencing, although would have been much better if he'd had his licence removed at a much earlier stage perhaps, and the whole thing had never happened ...
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Old Saturday 5th October 2019, 22:22   #5
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I'll give it a double click in Nutcracker's honour
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Old Saturday 5th October 2019, 22:39   #6
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I'll give it a double click in Nutcracker's honour
You may as well give Boris a quick cuddle whilst you're there.
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Old Saturday 5th October 2019, 22:43   #7
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You may as well give Boris a quick cuddle whilst you're there.
Na, think he is a tad preoccupied with other issues to be messing round with hugs, will skip that one :)
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Old Saturday 5th October 2019, 23:23   #8
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Na, think he is a tad preoccupied with other issues to be messing round with hugs, will skip that one :)
I was going to say yes, you should ditch that idea perhaps ...
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Old Sunday 6th October 2019, 00:18   #9
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I once had a civil case that hinged on whether reasonable insurance had been obtained in respect of a light aircraft. I was astonished at the low levels of recommended/compulsory insurance.

All the best
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Old Sunday 6th October 2019, 02:12   #10
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Any more reliable sources than the Daily Fail, please?

I refuse to give any click count to their disgusting neofascist website, too.
Any better?: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-englan...ester-47589932
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Old Sunday 6th October 2019, 06:35   #11
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I once had a civil case that hinged on whether reasonable insurance had been obtained in respect of a light aircraft. I was astonished at the low levels of recommended/compulsory insurance.

All the best

I have a friend who used to fly Austers that had seen service in the Second World War and for that he only needed £1M Public Liability Insurance. I have a friend who's and entomologist and he needs £5M PL Insurance for wandering around nature reserves with an insect net. Which one is going to cause more damage if something goes wrong?
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Old Sunday 6th October 2019, 10:39   #12
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I have a friend who used to fly Austers that had seen service in the Second World War and for that he only needed £1M Public Liability Insurance. I have a friend who's and entomologist and he needs £5M PL Insurance for wandering around nature reserves with an insect net. Which one is going to cause more damage if something goes wrong?
That just about sums it up. You need more insurance to drive a car. In the case in which I was involved, we initially succeeded in persuading the judge (who subsequently became Master of the Rolls which is a judicial rather than a catering position) to order a higher than minimum level was required under the lease. However, he subsequently revisited his decision.

Non Daily Mail link to recent insurance element of this incident here:-

https://www.blackpoolgazette.co.uk/n...ers-1-10036023

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Old Sunday 6th October 2019, 11:47   #13
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Why not leave simply your political views out of it?
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Old Sunday 6th October 2019, 14:23   #14
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That just about sums it up. You need more insurance to drive a car.
Regarding insurance, it’s FAR more dangerous to drive a car than to fly an airplane, if you’re considering likelihood of damage and expense. You don’t fly two feet away from thousands of other vehicles operated by mostly barely trained and inattentive people. There is certainly the potential for - unusual - damage in a single private aircraft, but to a much LESS catastrophic degree. Consider the car crashes and pileups and lives lost on the road happening thousands of times a day. Private aircraft incidents are extremely rare, no matter how big the headlines. Insurance is by the numbers.

I’m not defending this jackass or his many, many blatant intentional violations, but he made an astoundingly safe landing in exactly the type of place he was trained to aim for, piling-on headlines aside.

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Old Sunday 6th October 2019, 17:46   #15
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Thanks! So the same case as there was a thread about a few months ago
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Old Sunday 6th October 2019, 18:01   #16
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Regarding insurance, itís FAR more dangerous to drive a car than to fly an airplane, if youíre considering likelihood of damage and expense. You donít fly two feet away from thousands of other vehicles operated by mostly barely trained and inattentive people. There is certainly the potential for - unusual - damage in a single private aircraft, but to a much LESS catastrophic degree. Consider the car crashes and pileups and lives lost on the road happening thousands of times a day. Private aircraft incidents are extremely rare, no matter how big the headlines. Insurance is by the numbers.

Iím not defending this jackass or his many, many blatant intentional violations, but he made an astoundingly safe landing in exactly the type of place he was trained to aim for, piling-on headlines aside.
Likelihood effects premium. I was referring to indemnity limit.

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Old Sunday 6th October 2019, 18:02   #17
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Regarding insurance, itís FAR more dangerous to drive a car than to fly an airplane, if youíre considering likelihood of damage and expense. You donít fly two feet away from thousands of other vehicles operated by mostly barely trained and inattentive people. There is certainly the potential for - unusual - damage in a single private aircraft, but to a much LESS catastrophic degree. Consider the car crashes and pileups and lives lost on the road happening thousands of times a day. Private aircraft incidents are extremely rare, no matter how big the headlines. Insurance is by the numbers.

Iím not defending this jackass or his many, many blatant intentional violations, but he made an astoundingly safe landing in exactly the type of place he was trained to aim for, piling-on headlines aside.
Why should the minimum level of cover be affected by the frequency of incident or probability of catastrophic incident? If I crash my car and kill 3 people, the liability should logically be the same as if I crash a plane and kill 3 people, all things being equal.

Surely the lower degree of risk you describe should be reflected in the cost of buying insurance cover, not the statutory minimum cover required?
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Old Sunday 6th October 2019, 18:03   #18
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Thanks! So the same case as there was a thread about a few months ago
No the OP link isn't which was why I added the Blackpool Gazette link (to supplement the Daily Mail one):-

https://www.blackpoolgazette.co.uk/n...ers-1-10036023

The BBC link is to the earlier case.
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Old Sunday 6th October 2019, 18:04   #19
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I once had a civil case that hinged on whether reasonable insurance had been obtained in respect of a light aircraft. I was astonished at the low levels of recommended/compulsory insurance.

All the best

Doesn't this come under liabliity / exclusion clauses?

When I did law,the quoted case law in contract was Caledonian Macbrayne who lost one of their ships along with a lot of other peoples cars etc.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McCutc..._MacBrayne_Ltd
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Old Sunday 6th October 2019, 18:10   #20
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Doesn't this come under liabliity / exclusion clauses?
Many thanks but actually mine was a case about the interpretation of a lease of an aircraft hangar on an airfield.

Like the Shoebill pic.

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Old Sunday 6th October 2019, 18:28   #21
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Why should the minimum level of cover be affected by the frequency of incident or probability of catastrophic incident? If I crash my car and kill 3 people, the liability should logically be the same as if I crash a plane and kill 3 people, all things being equal.

Surely the lower degree of risk you describe should be reflected in the cost of buying insurance cover, not the statutory minimum cover required?
Cost of coverage and minimums both rise quickly as the pilot’s ratings, requirements and capabilities of the plane, and uses of the plane expand. A Private Pilot is permitted to endanger only himself first, but even flying a single passenger friend for free once triggers the long chain of increasing requirements, which ultimately escalate the sophistication, certification and inspections of both the pilot and the plane and how far into the system they can both penetrate. For example, to take a single dollar in compensation, a pilot must have two more advanced ratings, more frequent and recent experience - and the plane must be more fully equipped and MUCH more frequently and intensively inspected and recertified. And you bet, the insurance situation rises.

It’s understandably easy to underestimate the complexity of the systems in place, even for a new pilot. And like anything involving people, some will decide it doesn’t apply to them. There’s much more involved.

Last edited by macuaig : Sunday 6th October 2019 at 18:37.
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Old Sunday 6th October 2019, 19:17   #22
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Cost of coverage and minimums both rise quickly as the pilotís ratings, requirements and capabilities of the plane, and uses of the plane expand. A Private Pilot is permitted to endanger only himself first, but even flying a single passenger friend for free once triggers the long chain of increasing requirements, which ultimately escalate the sophistication, certification and inspections of both the pilot and the plane and how far into the system they can both penetrate. For example, to take a single dollar in compensation, a pilot must have two more advanced ratings, more frequent and recent experience - and the plane must be more fully equipped and MUCH more frequently and intensively inspected and recertified. And you bet, the insurance situation rises.

Itís understandably easy to underestimate the complexity of the systems in place, even for a new pilot. And like anything involving people, some will decide it doesnít apply to them. Thereís much more involved.
While everything you write may be true, how does it have any relevance to the minimum level of cover a pilot should be required to hold? If a 30 year old father of 3 is killed, his family's financial requirements and appropriate levels of compensation are the same regardless of whether the pilot is a commercial airline pilot, or a newly qualified PPL.
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Old Sunday 6th October 2019, 19:37   #23
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While everything you write may be true, how does it have any relevance to the minimum level of cover a pilot should be required to hold? If a 30 year old father of 3 is killed, his family's financial requirements and appropriate levels of compensation are the same regardless of whether the pilot is a commercial airline pilot, or a newly qualified PPL.
I’ll have to leave that analysis to you and others.

[edit: But I would have you consider that as a pedestrian, I also could unintentionally cause the death of a 30 year-old father of three. What other form of transportation should my insurance minimums match?]

I’m just trying to help people realize that there’s much more to it than is obvious.

Last edited by macuaig : Sunday 6th October 2019 at 19:56.
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Old Monday 7th October 2019, 10:02   #24
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Many thanks but actually mine was a case about the interpretation of a lease of an aircraft hangar on an airfield.

Like the Shoebill pic.

All the best
Cheers Paul, yours was as good I think.

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Old Monday 7th October 2019, 10:09   #25
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I’ll have to leave that analysis to you and others.

[edit: But I would have you consider that as a pedestrian, I also could unintentionally cause the death of a 30 year-old father of three. What other form of transportation should my insurance minimums match?]

I’m just trying to help people realize that there’s much more to it than is obvious.
In any scenario, the onus should be on the father of three to provide for his family in the event of his unforseen demise hence, the need for personal insurance / assurance?
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