bad pic of tricky gull, romanian black sea coast (1 Viewer)

hi again,

sorry for these pics, photographer b.j.kiss just wanted to document a bird which looked like it could be a first for the country. taken 28. october 2006 at one of the lagoon lakes of northern dobrogea, romania.
i know pics are horrible and i know it's a damn immature (probably 3rd winter), anyway what's your guess? it had dark eyes and an obvious short but robust bill. sizewise - in comparison to 3 nearby caspian and some common gulls - it looked small, closer to common than caspians.
i blew the first pic up., 2-4 are only cut out from a nice big landscape panorama...

Hi Lou,
I would tentatively guess Armenian gull, but i am definitely nowhere near expert level in this area, having never seen one in real...

, yes jörn, that was the suspicion of the photographer, an old ornithologist working in the danube delta for over 30 years i guess. but gullery has developed very recently to the understanding of species and subspecies and i don't know how uptodate he is.

to the bird in question: shortly, it shows a mixture of features belonging to different species, lets name them in the order of "probability": cachinnans, michahellis (these are the 2 normal ones of the grey mantled LWHG in romania), then armenicus and barabensis; it doesn't look at all like a herring gull to me. but maybe someone else has a different opinion. i'd exclude barabensis on bill lenghth, shape and colouring, and the light grey mantle tone.

- dark eye at 3rd or 4th winter (which it could be) is in line with cachinnans, (barabensis), and especially armenicus. rarely at this age in michahellis.

-the lower hindneck striation in alternate plumage is a feature of cachinnans - barabensis - heuglini, and armenicus? sometimes also michahellis but usually not that clearly defined,

- head and bill shape/lenghth is not at all like cachinnans - more like a small michahellis or an armenicus.

- black markings ar too weak for armenicus. the mantle tone seems too pale.

my suggestion is that this is a very small michahellis with not so typical head markings and an atypical dark eye. can't see it as cachinnans if i look at the head alone. looks like it has a hanging hindpart though, so i'm not totally happy with that. the largish white mirror in p10 is nothing to worry in eastern michahellis...

Is there a site with a good description of gulls and is also up-to-date on what species there are now? I get the feeling that Collins is a bit behind now...

colonelboris said:

Is there a site with a good description of gulls and is also up-to-date on what species there are now? I get the feeling that Collins is a bit behind now...

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There are load of websites, with 1000's of photos of gulls - enough to make even the most harden gull-watcher dizzy. If it is a good reference you are after, then the new "Gulls of Europe, Asia and America" book (Olsen & Larsson 2003) is probably the best place to start. However, remember, gulls are one of those groups where you will learn more by watching them in the field, than you ever will by reading about them!

lou salomon said:

,

- head and bill shape/lenghth is not at all like cachinnans - more like a small michahellis or an armenicus.

- black markings ar too weak for armenicus. the mantle tone seems too pale.

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Hi Lou,with black markings, do you mean those on the bill?
If yes, maybe the extent of this isnt fully visible due to the picture quality?

In the link below here the photo it is also a little bit blurry,and I could imagine that black markings on the bill could look even more reduced on a less sharp photo

http://www.martinreid.com/Gull website/armep14.html

Just a thought, about the other features i am lacking experience with armenicus-so not able to comment them

jörn, the bird in your link has the classical round head shape of armenicus and it is an adult. our dobrogean bird is immature and its eye looks big. immature gulls have a very variable amount of black subterminal bill markings, in certain species as in caspian and armenicus even as adults in alternate plumage.

I dont see the Armenian Gull here! Shape (on standing gull) is somehow wrong with not enough p-projection, if now fully grown primaries, difficult to count but we have to assume that the mirror is situated on a p10. Mantle looks to pale (images!), the mirror to large for a 3rd/4th winter type, even for an adult, as for a 3rd winter type Yellow-legged. In image 3 it looks like two mirrors, but could be blur? Wonder about the leg colour? If it had been photographed in western Europe, judging from the images, it could even pass as a Herring Gull! I could also perhaps see it as a Yellow-legged.

JanJ

thanks jan. that's what i expected. a 3rd winter YLG in the black sea can have such big p10-mirrors. i have definitely seen them. i think it is micha but you got to concede it is an odd one with that necklace and the dark eye. they don't frequent so much the lagoons, more at open sea and strand and of course in towns. and it was a single bird, that added to the suspicion.

lou salomon said:

jörn, the bird in your link has the classical round head shape of armenicus and it is an adult. our dobrogean bird is immature and its eye looks big. immature gulls have a very variable amount of black subterminal bill markings, in certain species as in caspian and armenicus even as adults in alternate plumage.

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Hi Lou, I didn´t want to suggest it´s comparable to the Armenian gull in that link.... the link was just to illustrate what I mean concerning the black on the bill.

I see that there are structural differences in the bird which might not be good for armenian gull, but I do not have the experience to comment on thisbirds identity.
I was merely thinking that compared to some pictures of Armenian gull I have seen the amount of black on the bill might be too less?

Glad that it seems to be sorted...

Joern Lehmhus said:

Glad that it seems to be sorted...

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i wouldn't call this bird as sorted. but i doubt it will ever be thanks anyway for your input.