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Aging eyes (1 Viewer)

black crow

Well-known member
I get to look at some nice binoculars at many different price ranges. I have access to Kowa Genesis , Swarovski 8x50 and the mid priced guys like Zen Ray, Meopta Meopro, Eagle Optics, etc. You get the idea.

Really I don't see that much difference in them. I mean I do see a difference but sometimes it's really very small. I'm 65 years old and I'm thinking that's why I don't see that much difference. Do you guys think that's likely what is going on? I know my eyes are not what they were even five years ago. I used to have perfect vision but it's gone bye bye.

So... let's say that my old eyes are likely the issue. Then for someone with older eyes is it somewhat of a waste to pay for alpha binoculars when a $500 pair or less would be just about as good viewing as a $2300 pair.
 
BC, I think it's a case of if the eyes have various (and even increasing) amounts of distortions, loss of accommodation, acuity drop offs, colour shifts, etc, then you really don't want the bins adding to that.

Generally, the higher price of the 'Alphas' provides incremental gains and spreads them over wider parts of the field. You also get commensurate glare reduction benefits, and of course you should expect greater mechanical precision and quality too. All of this should combine to give better focus snap, ease of view, colour pop, and clarity.

There are some gems in the $500 -$1000 range, such as the Nikon 8x32 SE.

I would be very interested to see how you find the Nikon Monarch HG (in 8x or 10x) in comparison to say SF'S, SV's, NV's, or EDG'S ....... :cat:



Chosun :gh:
 
Then if you are correct it's a value judgement and I'm one of those who doesn't find the benefits of the alpha worth all that extra $$. I'm just about as happy with the view in my Meopro or even my Sightron as I am in my Swarovski. It's mostly a dream I be chasing and not a reality (for me). I guess if I were honest I'd say that if I didn't get a ton of pleasure about talking about binoculars with other hobbyists I'd have maybe two pair of binoculars at most. I think that's really interesting and certainly telling about my personality. Someone posting here has a sig quote by Dave Barry that addresses this. Something to the effect of "there's a razors edge of difference between a hobby and a mental illness" I certainly can see now on which side of that razor I fall.:t:

EDIT: I think another factor is that most of my life I didn't have money. So I had to develop ways of getting all the things I wanted on a budget. So bang for the buck was my motto. Now, late in life I have plenty of money but I still have the mindset and values of someone living on a budget. In my mind, for what I get out of it, I can't justify spending money for an alpha when I get most of my bang for much less. I think that's why I'm about the only one posting on my Poor Boy Binocular academy awards.
 
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Black Crow,

I took Bill Cook's advice a few years back, and decided to 'let the binocular do the work for the eyes'. I'm 62, cross eyed, and wear glasses. I don't expect a miracle from these devices. At the same time I don't want to be distracted by something that draws my attention away from the view, or obviously degrades or affects the quality of the view.
To me, the initial critical things are the fit... The IPD, the eye relief, the weight/balance in the hand, play/speed of the focuser. More or less like trying on a pair of shoes or trousers, or sitting in a new car and figuring out where all the controls are, and how they feel ergonomically.

Once you've found the bins that basically fit you, one can judge things like the field of view, the apparent field, the level of CA, how large the sweet spot is, the amount and type of distortion at the edge of the field. Compare 'A' to 'B', if you've got 'em. There's no reason to expect one binocular is 'it'.... that there's a 'holy grail' out there...

If you've spent any time obsessing or fretting over stereo gear, I think binoculars can be a similar black hole. However, if the gear is pretty darn good, you'll just end up enjoying and listening to the music, and stop worrying about the specs and such. To a certain degree, I think it is the same with the binoculars. Go ahead and compare, and even 'strain' to look for the visual differences. My realization is that when I'm birding, its generally all about the bird, and the quality of that view/experience. Most everything else goes away. At a certain point, for me, it comes down more to optical and physical 'facts'... weight, eye relief, fov, afov, IPD, form factor, rather than hair splitting, and highly subjective perceptions. However, if you can see a difference, it doesn't matter if anyone else can. If you prefer 'A' over 'B', go for it.

These devices are not all the same, either in terms of design, build quality, what fits the individual, etc. I do think it is worth trying out different bins at different price points, objective size, magnification, field of view, and learn the differences for yourself. If you can spend the money, try some of the upper tier ones, and see what you enjoy about them. You may discover that it is not vastly superior optical performance, but just incrementally 'better' in many categories.... or not. Either way, it can be an interesting and enjoyable journey to figure out what works for you. Doesn't matter what you paid for it.

Been enjoying your various threads!

Bill
 
Damn I was an audiophile within my budget for many years. LOL. In the long run I just listened to my music but it took me some years to get there. I think again you are right in it's the journey that has caught my attention. I've always been a jack of many trades master of none kind of guy because I have had many interests over the years and a limited budget. That and to be honest I have some intelligence and learning disabilities that I've suffered from due to some unfortunate events in my childhood. So I have an easy time with many of the basics to a point and then I fall right off the rails. Fine detail is beyond my skill set. I'm good at a lot of things and great at none.

I think, again to be honest, that at a certain point doing what it takes to get all the fine detail begins to tax or bore me in an ADD sort of way, which is one of my problems. Then I just want to go out and play with my toys. I'm always going to be a kid that way. Doesn't matter that I'm 65. Honestly it's the part of myself that I enjoy the most and when I don't like it the most it's partly at least because I think I "should" be different or better at things. I judge myself against standards that are not really mine. It's crazy and yet it's programmed into my computer from a very young age to be like that.

I think that things like you mentioned, eye relief, weight, balance, the focuser, fit and finish are what end up being the important things when I evaluate lets say a pair of Zen Ray and a Swarovski. The views in both are stellar to me for the most part so it's not critical which pair I end up with, so it's the one that meets those other criteria that make the choice for me.

Bill I really appreciate you laying it all out like that. It helps me look at what I'm doing and what motivates me to be here with you all doing what I'm doing here. I love talking about my toys. I love talking to everyone here and listening to all the talk about something I really like. I've been in love with binoculars for at least 30 years and yet I'll never know a half of what many here know who might have only been into optics for two years. That's ok, I don't need to pretend things are other than they are. I have to keep reminding myself of that. I think I'm just as happy ultimately with a $200 set as a $2000 set. I think most of the optics are that good now for a jack of all trades. Yet each pair is something I want to hold and look though so I keep buying them looking for some kind of kid magic. It's very strange when I think about it but it makes perfect sense.
 
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I find that at 62 it's easier for me to discern a very good optic from a good one, for me personally. More on that..

I agree with what Bill wrote about letting the binocular do the work. The ergos and mechanicals of a bin are very important. I don't want to fight the thing. Easy, immediate, and comfortable is what I'm talking about. I have little patience in trying to adapt to an aspect of a bin that bothers me.

Visual accommodation. This is what I'm referring to in the first sentence. Because my eyes aren't as accommodating as they used to be I find I need very good optics to see well. And, I do see well, with good optics. My best bins, Leica and Fujinon, are sharp to my eye and focus very easily. When I was younger it was actually not as clear cut, the differences in good and great bins.

Even what many consider very good or excellent bins often don't seem sharp-sharp to me and the pass/fail test pretty short lived.

The other thing that I've incurred is that my eyes don't dilate much any more. My pupils are always stopped down, so to speak. I doubt I would benefit from an exit pupil larger than 4mm even under the darkest of conditions. Probably more like 3mm. Big, lower powered bins are a waste on me.
 
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The other thing that I've incurred is that my eyes don't dilate much any more. My pupils are always stopped down, so to speak. I doubt I would benefit from an exit pupil larger than 4mm even under the darkest of conditions. Probably more like 3mm. Big, lower powered bins are a waste on me.
Have you actually measured that?
 
I,ve used a few types of binoculars over 40 years and one spotting scope, mentally not really comeing to terms somehow that I,ve only ever had one eye to see from properly strange I know but I suppose It was more well I,ve got one lense I can use does it matter about thee other, Too hold the optics steady was probably a advantage If you can call it that but I,ve carried unnecessary weight all that time even thou 95% of that time I,ve used 8x30s, It was only last auturm I answered a advert for a opticron monocular 8x30 nitrogen filled almost never used over three quarters less its real sale price and I purchased this to good a offer to turn down and it suits me perfectly, but I now Wonder to myself If not for this advert would I carry on still just useing my bino,s.
 
I respectfully disagree with your approach.

I notice that you say "that much difference" and "just about as good" when you compare.

If you are that comfortable in your present circumstances, then you need to ask yourself, "For whom am I saving it?" I am not wealthy by a long shot, but one of the smartest things I have done lately was to buy myself an alpha binocular three years ago.

No more "almost as good" or "nearly the same". It is an absolute delight every time I raise it to my eyes.

Why not treat yourself, after all those years of frugality? If you can see a difference ..... there is a difference.

I find it hard to believe that you would regret it.
 
I respectfully disagree with your approach.

I notice that you say "that much difference" and "just about as good" when you compare.

If you are that comfortable in your present circumstances, then you need to ask yourself, "For whom am I saving it?" I am not wealthy by a long shot, but one of the smartest things I have done lately was to buy myself an alpha binocular three years ago.

No more "almost as good" or "nearly the same". It is an absolute delight every time I raise it to my eyes.

Why not treat yourself, after all those years of frugality? If you can see a difference ..... there is a difference.

I find it hard to believe that you would regret it.


I expect many to disagree and honestly I say "almost and nearly" so much because I think I'm going to offend someone who thinks I'm putting down their alpha binoculars. Honestly I don't see enough difference between my Zens or even Celestron's to make owning Swarovskis or a Kowa Genesis very important to me. I honestly get equal pleasure out of all of them. They all have strong and weak points and in the end, although I have my favorites, they all seem just fine to me.

I'm not the only one who feels this way. My friend who owns a pair of Kowa Genesis 8x33 prefers her Eagle Optics 8x42. I'm not talking about light gathering or ergonomics either. Those Genesis are way better brightness wise than those Eagles. She just prefers how things look though the Eagles. Now to my eyes I prefer the Genesis because they are so bright but I think the view in the Eagle's is just fine and compares favorably with the alpha Kowas. Her eyes are 70 years old but she has pretty good eyesight still. That's why I got to thinking it might be the age of the eyes but maybe for some of us the difference is so miniscule (to us) that it just makes no difference. We were looking that day at 7 different binoculars from $169 to just under $2000. We had a blast comparing them but I made a comment at the end that we both agreed on. At the end I had taken the least expensive pair. (Sightron 8x32) on a little bird walk with her and I said, "you know once you just have one decent pair in hand and nothing to compare it to it seems like you are holding the best pair and don't really miss the others". She agreed. I'm not saying everyone feels this way however if I'm going to be honest I do.

I mean I do own a pair of those alphas but to me they are just another decent binocular among the many I have and they are hardly ever my first choice to look though for various reasons. For me what makes a great binocular is how much it can deliver for the price you pay. It's just a difference of perspective and values. I think that my Bushnell 10x25 may be in my eyes the best binocular of my dozen. It's an alpha to me because it comes so close to the qualities that make a good optic and they do it for $158 instead of $1000 or more. To me that makes it an alpha and better than Swarovski. It's just a different perspective on what quality means.
 
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When I'm outside and in nature, I don't focus on the binoculars, but just looking through them at the world, and if it is a pleasing view (more often than not), I just think, wow, look at that! The only time I focus on the binoculars, is when I'm directly comparing them and trying to decide to keep of send one back. I have a pair of old Minolta 8x42 Classic II Porros in the car, for when I didn't bring any along, and honestly, they do great! I really like the view! Are they great binoculars? No. Do I care? No! Not when I am having fun outside with them!

Sure, some you CAN see better with, if they are sharper, brighter, etc, but many of us who have ADD do get tired of all the headwork of comparing, and just grab a pair and we're happy in the moment, just being out there WITH binoculars! I will say now that am not a birdman, per se, but more a nature boy who just likes seeing things up close. All the great creatures we can see, and all the flora too, and anything that catches my eye (like clouds).

Funny, though, I remembered that you were looking for a nice pair of 8x30's or such, like your 10x32 Meopros, so I compared my Sightron BSII's 8x32 with my Nikon EII 8x30's, and the difference is like night and day just for brightness (though there are more differences too), which will help old eyes see more under some conditions. Don't get me wrong, if I had my BSII's out in the world, I wouldn't even notice they had any shortfalls, and if I had my EII's, I wouldn't think, wow, am I glad I had these today instead of the BSII's! So yeah, I see your point, though it surely wouldn't apply to everyone of us here.

I'm sure it also depends on what you want to see in detail too, so higher end optics usually give you more detail, if that is what you are looking for, along with quite a bit more good stuff too, no doubt. So I do see the attraction to high end optics-it's just that I probably won't go there myself because I am seeing what I want to see pretty much now with my approximately $500 and under wonders! Would I enjoy something closer to an Alpha? I'm sure I would! Though I think if you get used to seeing the world through those rose colored glasses, it will be hard to go back again, once you do see the differences. I haven't had much money either, and I still don't! But I'm OK with that, and my lesser needs when I'm in nature than some. That's just me though.

I have the Eagle Optics 6x32 SRT Rangers, and still think they are great too! ; )
 
"The other thing that I've incurred is that my eyes don't dilate much any more. My pupils are always stopped down, so to speak. I doubt I would benefit from an exit pupil larger than 4mm even under the darkest of conditions. Probably more like 3mm. Big, lower powered bins are a waste on me."

Have you actually measured that?

Sort of. I have measured them before (15 years ago maybe) at about 5.5mm.

Lately, they look to be around 2 -2.5 mm, and I haven't bothered to try to get a measurement.

The method I've used is to hold a scale across the bridge of my nose at near the horizontal plane of my pupils. Looking in a bathroom mirror I turn off the lights for as many minutes as I can stand. Looking ahead at the mirror, with my face close, I turn on the lights and quickly get a measurement before the pupils constrict. There may be better methods that I'm unaware of.
 
The method I've used is to hold a scale across the bridge of my nose at near the horizontal plane of my pupils. ...There may be better methods that I'm unaware of.

Kevin: using a ruler might be better?////Peter
 
"The other thing that I've incurred is that my eyes don't dilate much any more. My pupils are always stopped down, so to speak. I doubt I would benefit from an exit pupil larger than 4mm even under the darkest of conditions. Probably more like 3mm. Big, lower powered bins are a waste on me."



Sort of. I have measured them before (15 years ago maybe) at about 5.5mm.

Lately, they look to be around 2 -2.5 mm, and I haven't bothered to try to get a measurement.

The method I've used is to hold a scale across the bridge of my nose at near the horizontal plane of my pupils. Looking in a bathroom mirror I turn off the lights for as many minutes as I can stand. Looking ahead at the mirror, with my face close, I turn on the lights and quickly get a measurement before the pupils constrict. There may be better methods that I'm unaware of.

Didn't I once read that you can take a flash photo and read it, because your pupils can't react fast enough to contract before the flash is over?
 
The only cameras that I know are safe for flash at close distances in total or almost total darkness are the Konica Minolts Z5 or Z6.
Even their instruction book says don't do it.
So I cannot even recommend them.

I doubt that the pupil size will have shrunk from 5.5mm to 2.5mm in 15 years, although it may be possible.
I would hazard a guess that they are 4.5mm or somewhat larger.

Try using 3mm and 4mm pinholes at night and see if the view gets any dimmer, when carefully positioning the pinhole, one eye at a time.
 
...Lately, they look to be around 2 -2.5 mm, and I haven't bothered to try to get a measurement.

The method I've used is to hold a scale across the bridge of my nose at near the horizontal plane of my pupils. Looking in a bathroom mirror I turn off the lights for as many minutes as I can stand. Looking ahead at the mirror, with my face close, I turn on the lights and quickly get a measurement before the pupils constrict. There may be better methods that I'm unaware of.

A pupil size of 2.5 mm is quite small, whatever your age, but you could be one of the few who only dilate that much.

I can't imagine that you are fast enough using that method of measurement, esp. if you have poor accommodation.
You should hold a ruler immediately below your eye at the same distance to the camera as your pupil, then take a picture with flash.

Pupil dilation declines with age, but the variation among individuals is enormous. Plenty of 70 year-olds have 6 mm pupils.

--AP
 
The only cameras that I know are safe for flash at close distances in total or almost total darkness are the Konica Minolts Z5 or Z6.
Even their instruction book says don't do it.
So I cannot even recommend them.

I doubt that the pupil size will have shrunk from 5.5mm to 2.5mm in 15 years, although it may be possible.
I would hazard a guess that they are 4.5mm or somewhat larger.

Try using 3mm and 4mm pinholes at night and see if the view gets any dimmer, when carefully positioning the pinhole, one eye at a time.

Considering the intensity and duration of the light the ophthalmologist shines into your dilated eye during an exam, I tend to think that caution was written by lawyers.
 
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