Uk400club 'list Of Lists' Etc Etc (1 Viewer)

Steve

After chatting with Barry Reed, the situation surrounding the Hornemann's Redpoll that you saw on Fair Isle was quickly resolved - many months ago. This bird had always been on your list (my version of it) and had only been highlighted because others had bought it to my attention and it was my duty to investigate it. We found that numerous 'accepted' Hornemanni's actually weren't these at all and actually related to Icelandic Redpolls, which are incredibly variable. There was nothing sinister nor untoward.

You say what I do is like having Big Brother watching over you - it seems that you save and collect every email I write in a public forum so that you can use it as ammunition in any such flare-up on the internet at a future date. You very rarely involve yourself in any discussions yet you know everything I write on different subjects - spooky

Richard Fuller

This would be a perfect solution if you could have faith in each individual entry - but in just a brief scan of entries there, you see a bewildering array of birds ticked off which would not be on a normal comparative listing were it to be vetted or scrutinised. It comes back to the same arguments.

Lee Evans said:

Richard Fuller

This would be a perfect solution if you could have faith in each individual entry - but in just a brief scan of entries there, you see a bewildering array of birds ticked off which would not be on a normal comparative listing were it to be vetted or scrutinised. It comes back to the same arguments.

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Hi Lee,

Yep, I totally see what you're saying, this is a genuinely tough one to resolve. I suppose the two main alternatives are a publicly available set of lists that is necessarily subject to inclusion of stringy records but that could have genuinely comprehensive buy-in, or a privately maintained list that does a better job of weeding out the string, but is incomplete because many people would rather maintain their own list.

A trade-off with no easy solution (which I suppose explains the 500+ posts on this thread!)

cheers,

Rich

upstarts1979 said:

But do you remember the 'battle' of the quayside on the Friday night (my football hooligan training helped me that night), we won that one8-P

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HAHA:-O

Yes, indeed i do recall an 'incident' - I was'nt there myself, bizzy back in the digs leafing thru 'Western Birds' (feathered, obviously....) and a rolled up copy of Steve Gantlet!:king:

All i heard next day was there was scuffling, snot and other bodily fluids, lots of noise but a distinct Brummie twang could be picked out, to the trained ear and a shadowy figure with Blonde hair and a long leather coat......much resembling the attached picture ...........

Fortunately for the 'mystery brawler' St Marys only copper was 'moonlighting' as a bouncer outside the 'Cressa'............throwing people.......IN

Lee Evans said:

Bubolisting clearly caters for all of those individuals that wish to place their version of life lists in all of their entirety into the public domain - there is no point in me compiling the very same sort of list - it is meaningless and not representative of the true picture.

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I think that this is where the main source of disagreement lies. Most particularly the suggestion that a 3rd party can do a more accurate job of deciding what and individual has seen!

When its all out in the open, anyone can look at e.g. Steve's list, and if they are the slightest bit bothered, form their own conclusions

Richard Fuller said:

Hi Lee,

Yep, I totally see what you're saying, this is a genuinely tough one to resolve. I suppose the two main alternatives are a publicly available set of lists that is necessarily subject to inclusion of stringy records but that could have genuinely comprehensive buy-in, or a privately maintained list that does a better job of weeding out the string, but is incomplete because many people would rather maintain their own list.

A trade-off with no easy solution (which I suppose explains the 500+ posts on this thread!)

cheers,

Rich

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There is a thread called “Listing - suggestions for a way forward” at
http://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=185339

Perhaps a further suggestions could be added to that thread.

rollingthunder said:

HAHA:-O

Yes, indeed i do recall an 'incident' - I was'nt there myself, bizzy back in the digs leafing thru 'Western Birds' (feathered, obviously....) and a rolled up copy of Steve Gantlet!:king:

All i heard next day was there was scuffling, snot and other bodily fluids, lots of noise but a distinct Brummie twang could be picked out, to the trained ear and a shadowy figure with Blonde hair and a long leather coat......much resembling the attached picture ...........

Fortunately for the 'mystery brawler' St Marys only copper was 'moonlighting' as a bouncer outside the 'Cressa'............throwing people.......IN

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Like it Laurie..8-P
.only after they were sorted could Birders once again walk around the scillies unhindered , but if that what it took then so be it.B cuddy

Lee Evans said:

I still have Lady A's to see - in fact four - but because of politics, I know longer take anyone to see them other than a very trusted few....

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Ah ... you see you confused me...I just had to look and find it to make sure it wasn't my memory. Seems to be at best a non-sequetur taken in conjunction with this.

Lee Evans said:

Eventually, through old age and some deliberate shooting, they all died out and became extinct. Just before the last adult male disappeared, it was suddenly joined by a hybrid Lady A x Golden Pheasant.

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So you automatically don't allow anyone to have Lady As on their list unless its the ones that you...for want of a better word suppress. What if there were birds that you didn't know about?

John - my mat.e says "Yoo and yor list iz ay poof"!

Back to the thread - technically, only people that are members of the UK400 club should actually be featured? I know lee 'wants' others, particularly the big-listers in order to put some perspective but if it is a 'club' then it is for the members only - i am sure that 'non-members' would not qualify for access and other membership 'perks' but their records are up for scrutiny which is fine if they do not mind but if they do then if is surely best to remove them as they will probably be available elsewhere - it really is like 2 bald men arguing over a comb - i have enjoyed the cut and thrust of this thread and seen one or two faces come out of the woodwork from more years ago than i care to remember! I like Lee, personally and i do not want to see him bankrupted as the birding scene IMO would be a poorer place but the info would be best removed and the World will still turn.

I am glad that my local pool and fieds are crap and i do'nt find anything significant enough to report

Laurie -

black kite 1964 said:

Perhaps the film could end with Lee waking up and realising it had all been a dream!!

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This has already been covered in post #183

James Lowther said:

blimey - could that be construed as libellous

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James you may have a point there. That is also why I put my hands up, said sorry and deleted the offending parts of the post. It is called problem solving and can resolve situations such as this without any need to resort to daggers, insults, pins in vodo dolls and other unpleasant stuff!!!!

Lee. Thank you for the communication, the content of which is mostly accepted. I look forward to reviewing your revised list which will no doubt be published in full in the next few days. As for the emails you now claim were never sent to you in the first place, I am happy to accept this explanation in the circumstances - although only just!! This is course, could have been prevented had you not claimed to have documents, that you later say never existed.

Anyway, provided the revised list has my name removed, then as far as I am concerned the matter has been resolved.

I do however note an posting on the uk400 email group at 12.23 hours, in respect of the closure of of the uk 400 club. At the time of writing 18.37 hours, the number of sympathic responses to this initial posting totals three individuals. I also note your comments that the uk 400 club is not a business venture. This does appear at odds with a £25 subcription fee for full assess to the site!!! Any closure of the uk 400 site, be it temporary or otherwise is of no relevance to the matter in hand. Lee as you have stated in communication that data entries have been deleted, the expectation is that you publish the amended list to confirm this for all concerned.

Lee, it would be really helpful, if you would post on this thread when the revised list is online for public viewing.

Thanks.

Many years ago as a 15 year old at an inland reservoir I watched a well known Northern twitcher adroitly turn a flyover slimline Aylesbury into a storm driven Gannet.It was of course later accepted as a county record. The bloody thing was begging for bread in the carpark as I left. How many of you 400 + are certain you saw what you say you saw to the exact number? Go on, time to confess, you'll feel a lot better. Bet none of you have seen a real Scottish Crossbill.

Steve Webb said:

There is a thread called “Listing - suggestions for a way forward” at
http://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=185339

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Which actually produced very little in the form of constructive ideas, and many more people hating the idea of any kind of policing/review/verification/voting/whatever. Our conclusion was therefore that the vast majority of people keeping lists keep them out of interest rather than a need for direct and accurate competition with other listers.

Just so you know, the Slender-billed Curlew thread currently has 1260 posts. I am hopeful that it can be beaten, so keep up the good work everyone.

Hmmm Section 10 or a Section 10 notice of the DPA 1998.

Right to prevent processing likely to cause damage or distress.

(1)Subject to subsection (2), an individual is entitled at any time by notice in writing to a data controller to require the data controller at the end of such period as is reasonable in the circumstances to cease, or not to begin, processing, or processing for a specified purpose or in a specified manner, any personal data in respect of which he is the data subject, on the ground that, for specified reasons—

(a)the processing of those data or their processing for that purpose or in that manner is causing or is likely to cause substantial damage or substantial distress to him or to another, and

(b)that damage or distress is or would be unwarranted.

I am surprised that http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1998/29/section/10 hasn't been quoted before (as it covers all the clauses)

You just need to prove that a "data controller" is causing you distress and hey presto the law is on your side. However the data controller has up to 28 days to avoid any further action by the ICO by complying with the DPA. The ICO can take action if they believe the person has been clearly in breach. The ICO do like a turn around ASAP.

The court does have the right to seek and request destruction of the data concerned and award compensation.

There are grey areas, but legal precedence has found in favour of the privacy of the individual.

I did remember one person stating that they were advised not to respond - yet still do. Nothing like not listening to advice.

Jos Stratford said:

Total madness Lee, why bother asking advice from anyone, the solution is so simple - just delete names of those who don't want to be on the list and be done with it.

You have yourself admitted that some of the lists are mere estimations, so they are pretty meaningless anyhow - by deleting these names, in reality all you would be doing is tidying up areas of inaccuracy on your list.

I simply can't fathom why you don't just back down for once - if not for the sake of those who want their names removed, then for yourself. The sheer pettiness of refusing to budge an inch reflects ever worse on you ...and given you operate tours and make a living from birding, etc, can this be in your interest?

As you know, I have absolutely no grudge against you, but you really are doing yourself no favours .

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I'd go with this. It's good advice.

But then I ain't no twitcher with an 'ego' to protect/promote.

There's a world out there that could not give a flying fart what goes on in the 'upper echelons' of UK birding....and do you know, they're probably right.

That's the last I'm saying on this

dave...

This thread seems to be a living and breathing entity,steadily evolving into something we cannot quite grasp,lets hope this creature is finally inhaling deep and long.

A Twitcher Replies

There's a world out there that could not give a flying fart what goes on in the 'upper echelons' of UK birding....and do you know, they're probably right.

that's the rub of the matter as for the most part those with the biggest lists don't care for competitive listing and comparative lists. Although I'm not denying the true value of "gripping off" here which occurs between all birders at all levels. However none of these lists are ever going to accurately reflect the numbers of birds that listers have seen as most birders regard their list as very personal.

As such birders employ a host of criteria to value and create "their own list". The list may be confined to a region of the UK not the whole; may include or exclude offshore islands; may include or exclude foreign countries, may be restricted to birds not seen already elsewhere in the world; may only include birds that are truly internationally rare or those that are difficult to see in their natural range...the list goes on.......and on

Birders will set personal target such as 400 in the UK and Ireland or target 500 category "A" BOURC birds therefore adapting another list for their own personal ends. In acheiving these goals other birds are picked up the way, Category C & D BOU list birds for example. Or those that will become future splits or even, god forbid, LUMPED!

As you can see its virtually impossible for any UK birder, obsessive or not, to keep up with their own list never mind for the the UK 400, Birding World, BUBO or whatever to try to do the same for all of us without cooperation.

As I said before in the real world we have to put with others obsessions with lists, forms and tax returns and such shite. As Cuddy says how can you reduce a life's experiences and encounters with both amazing birds and some equally amazing fellow human beings to a number?...I am not a number!

To conclude therefore a Twitcher is a birder who travels to see a new bird ,now matter how near or far, so that covers most of us. More importantly a Twitcher is NOT necessarily a Lister. As we have discovered in the preceeding 100 pages...
............................ for most of us a Lister is something completely different.

Maybe this will help. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ujHQP8o67rQ

someone mentioned films earlier in the thread..i think this is what you call a parody o or even perhaps a parable ..very similar when said quickly

http://youtu.be/tFdJ-Pr15S4