Join for FREE
It only takes a minute!
Zeiss - Always on the lookout for something special – Shop now

Welcome to BirdForum.
BirdForum is the net's largest birding community, dedicated to wild birds and birding, and is absolutely FREE! You are most welcome to register for an account, which allows you to take part in lively discussions in the forum, post your pictures in the gallery and more.

Alternative to the TE-9Z zoom on the 663M?

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread
Old Sunday 1st September 2019, 17:28   #1
mskb
Registered User

 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 137
Alternative to the TE-9Z zoom on the 663M?

Hello, I am wondering about the 20-60 zoom's relatively narrow field. I see the 30X fixed TE-14W being recommended as an alternative, but are there better zoom alternatives that would fit a 663M? Thanks!
mskb is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Sunday 1st September 2019, 17:51   #2
marcsantacurz
Registered User

 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Location: Santa Cruz, CA
Posts: 778
I think the 3 choices are: TE-17HD 25x LER (FoV 41.9 M), TE-14WD 30x wide (FoV 36.7M), and TE-9Z 20-60x zoom (FOV 33.2-17.5M). I don't think the TE-11WZ (FoV 42~23M) is compatible outside the 77mm - 88mm models.

Compare to the Nikon 20-60x MEP with FoV 37-17M, the TE-9Z is a little more restricted at the high-end (4m @ 1000m).

The exit pupil on the TE-9 is 3.3-1.1mm while the MEP 20-60 on the 82ED is 4.1 to 1.4 mm. That might be more noticeable than the FoV difference.

I've not used the TSN-663, so that is all just specs. I'm not sure what the experience difference is between the 663 and 82ED with their 20-60x zooms.

Marc
__________________
https://tear.com
marcsantacurz is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Sunday 1st September 2019, 21:49   #3
mskb
Registered User

 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 137
Thanks Marc for the 20-60 Nikon reference.

I guess then, if picking the 663M, it is a hard decision on the eyepiece : zoom flexibility vs. a significantly more relaxed view. Not sure when the TE-9Z was released (2011?) but if it is about a decade old, one would think Kowa would have come up with an improved FoV zoom eyepiece by now! It would make our decisions a lot easier!

Last edited by mskb : Sunday 1st September 2019 at 21:51.
mskb is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Sunday 1st September 2019, 22:17   #4
jring
Registered User

 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Germany
Posts: 2,105
Hi,

a wide angle zoom needs a larger field stop diameter than the Kowa small bodies can suport with their bayonet mount.

Joachim
jring is online now  
Reply With Quote
Old Sunday 1st September 2019, 23:00   #5
mskb
Registered User

 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 137
Thanks Joachim. Interesting, so perhaps we need a new body design then? Other manufacturers with their more modern 60/65 scopes seem to have have worked things out fairly OK. Given that the 663M came out ~4.5 years ago, perhaps we will see some improvement with the 600/660 series bodies in the next two to three years. Who knows! I would be surprised if they can go on with this narrow FoV-d zoom for the next decade.

We really like the 663Ms. The zoom makes the choice hard.
mskb is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Sunday 1st September 2019, 23:18   #6
jring
Registered User

 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Germany
Posts: 2,105
Hi,

I doubt that Kowa will make a new small body bayonet in the near future given the fact that they just did bring out the a lot of accessories for the small bodies along with a big campaign based on the compatibility of what is now called System S.

They could of course make a 30-X wide zoom. It's just 20x where a wide afov will result into more tfov than the small bodies can support.

Joachim
jring is online now  
Reply With Quote
Old Sunday 1st September 2019, 23:45   #7
mskb
Registered User

 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 137
Thanks Joachim! You are a lot more experienced in this than I am, so you are probably right.

I just looked up System S - thank you! - it is an interesting effort. However, it does make me wonder if a bunch of adapters & accessories are enough to suggest they might not be bringing out new body designs (and create a couple more adapters if needed). Especially when the current body design is "limiting" for wide FoV zoom EP designs.

I am just venting my frustration with that zoom. We loved everything else about the 663M.
mskb is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Monday 2nd September 2019, 03:58   #8
marcsantacurz
Registered User

 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Location: Santa Cruz, CA
Posts: 778
I usually use a fixed 32x on my MM4/60, not the 15-45 SDL zoom. The 32x (and 27x for that matter) is a much more pleasant view -- nice wide AFoV that surrounds your eye much better than the SDL. Also, something closer to a 2mm exit pupil is much brighter than the top end of the zoom too.

You might see if you can get a demo at the store with the 30x wide or 25x LER.

Marc
__________________
https://tear.com
marcsantacurz is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Monday 2nd September 2019, 08:50   #9
jring
Registered User

 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Germany
Posts: 2,105
Quote:
Originally Posted by mskb View Post
I am just venting my frustration with that zoom. We loved everything else about the 663M.
Hi,

in that case, take the 30 wide and maybe the 1.6x extender for cases you need more reach. Or use the 30x normally and put on the zoom only for high magnifications (the zoom has a not too shabby afov at 60x).

Or have another look at the Nikon ED60 with a wide angle fixed EP or two. Your problems with narrow field and insufficient eye relief will be gone...

Btw, I dare say that your results were skewed a bit by heat haze if you found all instruments on test to show a noticeably degraded image beyond 30x - this is sth beyond the control of the manufacturer (all instruments of equal aperture will be affected in the same way at a given time - smaller aperture gives a higher probability to temporarily get a good image - bino-vision helps too as the brain merges the sharp parts of each tube).

I took out my Kowa 613 with the 20-60 zoom to the balcony this morning and found the image at 60x quite ok (cool sunny morning over water - so no heat haze). Yes, my TSN-3 with the SDLv2 might offer a bit more afov and might be a bit better at discerning subtle plumage patterns at max magnification (and certainly in a star test). But the 613 is quite usable and I might take it on my next vacation with a light tripod.

Joachim
jring is online now  
Reply With Quote
Old Monday 2nd September 2019, 13:33   #10
mskb
Registered User

 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 137
Thanks Joachim! We hope to try to get a look through the 663M with the 30X fixed, compare once again with the Opticron MM4/60. If still not satisfying, may be, we need to go the "buy once-cry once" route. Darn!
mskb is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Monday 2nd September 2019, 13:48   #11
jring
Registered User

 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Germany
Posts: 2,105
Hi,

one more question on the MM4 with the SDLv2 - you did twist down the eycup for use with glasses, right?
Because I often have people with glasses looking through mine and when the eycup is down, they usually are ok (or too afraid to complain ;-)

Joachim
jring is online now  
Reply With Quote
Old Monday 2nd September 2019, 19:29   #12
mskb
Registered User

 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 137
Hi Joachim, yes we did twist down the eyecups. :)
mskb is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Tuesday 3rd September 2019, 21:11   #13
mskb
Registered User

 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 137
Hi Marc, Joachim and others, We did the aforementioned comparisons and tried out a couple other scopes one more time. We made sure we checked out the TE-9Z in store one more time. I realized I was being too harsh on the TE-9Z in my earlier posts. I have now purchased the 663M + TE-9Z 20-60. Cheers, and thanks for the help everyone!

Last edited by mskb : Tuesday 3rd September 2019 at 21:26.
mskb is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Wednesday 4th September 2019, 13:03   #14
mayoayo
Registered User
 
mayoayo's Avatar

 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: El Garraf
Posts: 2,242
The Baader Hyperion Mk IV doesnt fit the small kowas?.I would have to test that Myself ..unfortunately i havent been able to locate a scope to do so...I am not saying that the people that tried didnt do It well,but i read similar reports about the Kowa 823 and ended working more than well...
mayoayo is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Wednesday 4th September 2019, 13:23   #15
jring
Registered User

 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Germany
Posts: 2,105
Quote:
Originally Posted by mayoayo View Post
The Baader Hyperion Mk IV doesnt fit the small kowas?.I would have to test that Myself ..unfortunately i havent been able to locate a scope to do so...I am not saying that the people that tried didnt do It well,but i read similar reports about the Kowa 823 and ended working more than well...
Hi,

I think nobody tried it... I have a 613 but unfortunately I did get a Mk III for my astro scope some years ago so not too inclined to get the IV.

I can do a quick check tonight and tell you up to what distance I can focus with the III. Maybe s.b. in the astro club has a Mk IV to really try it... gotta ask...

EDIT: tried 663 with Baader Mk III - fits mechanically if the plastic cylinder over the groove and pin is removed, limit of focus is 700m or so. Mk IV will likely come to infinity then...

Joachim

Last edited by jring : Wednesday 4th September 2019 at 19:44.
jring is online now  
Reply With Quote
Old Thursday 5th September 2019, 11:13   #16
Vámibimbero
Registered User

 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Luxembourg
Posts: 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by mayoayo View Post
The Baader Hyperion Mk IV doesnt fit the small kowas?.I would have to test that Myself ..unfortunately i havent been able to locate a scope to do so...I am not saying that the people that tried didnt do It well,but i read similar reports about the Kowa 823 and ended working more than well...
Hello,

I tried it, on TS-612 and TS-614. I did not have success to reach absolute infinity (I means: with a genuine Kowa eyepiece you can reach infinity AND some plus tours with the focus knob); the infinity is reached at lower magnifications, but with high mags, the limitation of sharp distances is several hundred meters. It is just my experience; in other thread somebody made DIY 3D printed attachment and stated about normal infinity circumstances: https://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=356170.

Regards

Vámi

Last edited by Vámibimbero : Thursday 5th September 2019 at 11:18.
Vámibimbero is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Thursday 5th September 2019, 18:40   #17
jring
Registered User

 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Germany
Posts: 2,105
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vámibimbero View Post
I tried it, on TS-612 and TS-614. I did not have success to reach absolute infinity (I means: with a genuine Kowa eyepiece you can reach infinity AND some plus tours with the focus knob); the infinity is reached at lower magnifications, but with high mags, the limitation of sharp distances is several hundred meters. It is just my experience; in other thread somebody made DIY 3D printed attachment and stated about normal infinity circumstances: https://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=356170.
Hi,

thanks for the info - the Mk IV in that thread was modified by cutting off a bit of the zoom barrel...

Joachim
jring is online now  
Reply With Quote
Old Thursday 5th September 2019, 19:12   #18
Vámibimbero
Registered User

 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Luxembourg
Posts: 47
Hello,

No, that was an another post/thread. I remember because I made the same cut on my Baader zoom with the same cutting tool, but even with that shortened lower barrel, the combo of mine did not reach the necessary deepness. I think that the secret hint would be the dremel tool + griding stone combo that modified the inner part of the ocular house, but until now I did not have enough self-esteem and courage to make a bigger operation on my 614. :-)

Krisz
Vámibimbero is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Friday 6th September 2019, 04:34   #19
mayoayo
Registered User
 
mayoayo's Avatar

 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: El Garraf
Posts: 2,242
Are all the bayonets from the TSN 1/2/3/4 ,60#,61#,66# etc absolutely the same?
I know they are compatible ,can you confirm if they have the exact same dimensions?
mayoayo is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Wednesday 11th September 2019, 07:28   #20
Vámibimbero
Registered User

 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Luxembourg
Posts: 47
Hello,

As soon as I have some free time, I will make measurements on my TS-614 and TSN-4 and I will reply.

Cheers,

Vámi
Vámibimbero is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Wednesday 11th September 2019, 16:53   #21
mayoayo
Registered User
 
mayoayo's Avatar

 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: El Garraf
Posts: 2,242
Cool..thx
mayoayo is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Wednesday 11th September 2019, 16:56   #22
mayoayo
Registered User
 
mayoayo's Avatar

 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: El Garraf
Posts: 2,242
And Please 663/64 owners,add to the thread if you wish..
mayoayo is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Tuesday 17th September 2019, 12:21   #23
Vámibimbero
Registered User

 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Luxembourg
Posts: 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by mayoayo View Post
Are all the bayonets from the TSN 1/2/3/4 ,60#,61#,66# etc absolutely the same?
I know they are compatible ,can you confirm if they have the exact same dimensions?
Hello,

I made the measurements on my Kowas. Please keep in mind that my old TSN-4 is with protective glass before the prism. The two bayonets are considerable similarities but differences too.

The same time I made measurements on my Baader Hyperion MK IV zoom nosepiece also. It has a 19 mm deepness, and 28,30 mm widht of the upper parts of the nose. Below that, after the cuts, just 25,98 mm and at the end 24,90 mm. So seems, that the nosepiece itself is wider that the inner part of the old Kowa scope bayonets.

Vámi
Attached Files
File Type: docx Table about bayonets KOWA TS614, TSN4WPG.docx (42.0 KB, 16 views)
Vámibimbero is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Monday 7th October 2019, 13:34   #24
Vámibimbero
Registered User

 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Luxembourg
Posts: 47
Hello everybody,

I need to add a corrigenda to my previous message. I managed to add the Baader Hyperion MK IV zoom eyepiece to my Kowa TS-614 AND reached the infinity. I used the Baader-Hyperion 41,5 mm wide zero-lenght reducing piece (https://www.baader-planetarium.com/e...l-height).html) and the A-adapter ring of the Hyperion zoom plus an O-ring. I am more that happy with this combo, the image is superb! Of cource I cut ca. 2 mm from the end of the nosepiece of the zoom, it is neccessary to apply the scope and ocular together.

Vámi

Last edited by Vámibimbero : Monday 7th October 2019 at 13:36.
Vámibimbero is offline  
Reply With Quote
Advertisement
Reply


Thread Tools
Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Kowa 663ED or 663M quandary.... Crake Dude Kowa 13 Thursday 16th June 2016 15:56
Kowa TSN-663M Questions sillyak Kowa 10 Tuesday 5th April 2016 23:08
New Kowa TSN-663M scopes Grando Kowa 5 Sunday 1st February 2015 22:44
Alternative Fixed/Zoom Eyepieces for ED 50? karmantra Nikon 17 Monday 7th January 2013 08:42
alternative foods for alternative birds lvn600 Garden Birds, Bird Feeding & Nestboxes 2 Thursday 21st April 2005 01:58

{googleads}

Fatbirder's Top 1000 Birding Websites

Help support BirdForum

Page generated in 0.15911388 seconds with 38 queries
All times are GMT. The time now is 23:46.