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Counting introduced species (1 Viewer)

bonxie birder

bonxie birder

Going for the One
United Kingdom
Hi there,

I've spent the last year doing numerous visits to Bedford and failing (by seconds in some cases) to see the last Lady Amherst. Then two nights ago I suddenly woke up in the middle of the night and asked myself, why do I want to see a bird that occurs in Myanmar and south China to appear on my British list when clearly it is not a British bird? I know it's on the British list, as are the other pheasants and I starting thinking how many of the ring necked pheasants that I count each year are any more wild than the gamekeeper's pointer. My British list is over 400 and my world is almost 1500. My first major twitch was the Red-breasted Nuthatch and I can hear you say that that was hardly a British bird. No it wasn't, but it got here, with or without man's help, ultimately by itself. Then I came to Capercaillie. I feel I can accept this. It was here, we drove it out, we brought it back.
I was wondering if anyone else doesn't include introduced species on their list, or shares similar views or things I'm being pedantic.
Thank you for taking time to read this. I wonder if it's made you think too.

Bonxie

Parakeets on the bird feeder again
 
Much like counting any other bird, I start with 'one', go on to 'two', and then 'three', and so on 3:)

Gets even trickier with things like Canada Goose: do you only count vagrants from Canada, or the honkers down on the park pond as well? And what if one day someone on the south coast catches a Little Owl with a French ring?

Personally I'm happy enough with the BOU rules, that Category C birds are 'tickable'. Though at the same time, I was rather pleased to see "real" (Category A) Red-legged Partridges in Portugal last month :t:
 
I don't keep a British list, but for my Jersey and life lists, I don't count anything that is introduced / reintroduced / vagrant from feral population etc. So for example I don't tick Common Pheasant or Red-legged Partridge, and I would not tick Canada Goose unless it was a genuine vagrant from North America, or Capercaillie in Scotland.

If you are comparing lists with others, it makes sense to use a common set of rules (even if you disagree with some), but ultimately it's entirely your choice what you decide to count. I have 2 in-the-hand ticks on my Jersey list, which some birders would not count.
 
I don't keep a British list, and don't count introduced birds on my list (eg Lady A's not on my list in spite of seeing one a long time ago at Little Brickhill, and I was truly gutted to dip it more recently in China where it really counts!). But (unlike DMW) I have taken to counting reintroductions recently. Each to their own though.
 
I do count Category C birds, but with an entry on a separate list indicating that they're just that, category C. Same for reintroductions (haven't consciously seen any yet, though). I also count vagrants, but only if their identity and provenance are ascertained by other, more experienced folks (e.g. district recorders or whatever they're called over here). And my British List is rather short and contains a lot of question marks...

Have to say though, ticking native or self-introduced species feels more "real" and authentic.
 
Most British world birders I know don't count (out-of-range)) introductions on their world list although they would happily count them on their National list, if the introduction was self-sustaining. The approach varies on whether they allow themselves re-introductions within native range (note South Island Takahe on Tiri tiri, North Island is an Introduction..)

cheers, a
 
With birds like the Common Mynas and House Sparrows around Brisbane, both have been in Australia for almost as long as the ancestors of most of our population, so I feel totally comfortable about ticking them. I feel a little less comfortable with some others, especially the Barbary Dove in New Zealand (I am embarrassed to admit that this bird is on my life list as African Collared Dove). The other issue in New Zealand is with re-introduced natives in places like Tiritiri Matangi. I would definitely argue that birds like Goldfinch, Redpoll and California Quail etc. living in NZ are certainly more wild than Tiritiri Matangi's reintroduced natives, which would struggle to survive without massive ongoing conservation efforts. Another interesting question is with where you draw the line with non-natives, for example are species that have only been able to colonise due to human action on the environment (e.g. Welcome Swallow in NZ) actually native? Are they any different to birds that have colonised by ship, like House Crows in East Africa? It's definitely difficult to know where to draw the line, but I'm happy to stick with the country's official list's definitions for what defines a self-sustaining introduced bird. One issue I am a little worried about though is which populations can be deemed 'self-sustaining', for example are the Golden Pheasants on Brownsea Island in the UK tickable? If not, why are they not considered self-sustaining, while similarly dodgy populations are? Any if so, what about the Peacocks there which are considerably more numerous and seem to be thriving as wild birds there? What a great question Bonxie!
 
Like Larry said: each to their own. I only keep a world list and haven't ticked any introductions or heard only species for that matter. Re-introductions are the only ones where I feel a bit conflicted. I haven't seen the Scottish Capercaillies but will probably keep that species off the list until I see them in e.g. Scandinavia. I'm happy to make an exception for some of the species that simply don't occur anywhere else in the wild any more though, such as the examples mentioned from New Zealand, or in my case California Condor.

When it comes to 'competitive' birding though (i.e. the Patchwork Challenge) I'm quite happy to go with the flow and will tick the local Pheasants (or a Scottish Capercaillie, if one ever makes it down to Hampshire!)

J
 
It is a good question!

I maintain a world life list, as well as WP, British and Lancashire lists. Like everyone else, it is ultimately my choice what I do and do not include in those lists. However, to aid comparison, I do follow AERC and BOU rules for my WP and British/Lancashire lists respectively. My general rule of thumb is that the population has to be self-sustaining or that the bird is a genuine vagrant; after all, such birds contribute to an area's avifauna. Hence, I've included birds such as Ring-necked Parakeet in my British list and, of course, tick the local Canada Geese. However, I wouldn't include an obviously escaped Bar-headed Goose or Egyptian Goose.

Two tricky birds I've seen though are Ross's Goose at Marshside RSPB and Ruddy Shelduck in Hertfordshire, as both have the potential to be vagrants, but are generally considered to be escapees in a UK context.

Cheers,
Simon
 
That was a better response than I expected. Thanks guys. You are all kind of saying the same thing. It's our choice. I do agree with Nohatch, sometimes we have to go against what we might think is right in order to compare. I guess for now the Canada Goose stays on the list and I'll still have to traipse up to Lidlington yet again.

Ian
 
hah...this thread seems to show up yearly

Reintroduced birds: Completely different category IMHO than non-native introductions. I won't hesitate to count birds like this, and in fact I have thanks to Tiritiri Matangi island. Same goes for quasi-reintroductions (AKA Takahe), where a species not native to an area is introduced to a region that had a now extinct close relative.

Introduced Species: I count introduced birds from populations that are considered established by a regional authority; either a regional birding/scientific body (BOU, ABA, AOU), or in the case of places which don't have a good regularly updated authority, whatever the most updated field guide says (Japan, probably other places). On the rare occasion I will add a bird that I feel should be on there, but bird committees are moving to slow on or are otherwise biased against, but I try to minimize this. If an introduced population was later erradicated or became otherwise extirpated, I would remove it from my list.

Honestly, most introduced birds are not "going away"; they are part of the local avian faunas, and will linger around as long as humans are present in the environment. Declining to count them because they don't feel natural is no different (to me) than refusing to count a hummingbird at a feeder. Not to mention their is far too much gray area here: what about species that have expanded their range due to anthropogenic climate change or human-assisted landscape modification?

Ship-assisted: I would count, but so far I think I have only one bird on my life list that might fall into that category. Also don't really see it as a huge deal.
 
I would count some but depends partly on my feel for the sighting and individual not simply inclusion or not on a national/regional list.

I will only count if is on a national/regional list as self-sustaining and bird I have seen seems wild.

To explain; many UK pheasant and red-legged partridge for example are obviously reared and released- only marginally different to chickens in my view. I don't consider the partridge clustering round feeders in a field wild. I have however seen tiny pheasant chicks following their mother at Pagham Harbour- I am happy these are genuinely part of the 'wild' population but these are only pheasants I have seen in UK that I feel completely comfortable ticking.
 
For me, it boils down to a matter of personal preference as much as anything else, obviously if you feel like it doesn't count then don't count it but I tend to take a slightly more philosophical view - that if a species is (or was) established here outside it's natural range, for better or worse it is part of the ecosystem now, and thus part of the fauna of the UK - as such, controversial as this may sound, in some ways I actually regard them as more important ticks than a vagrant.

Realistically, there is a not insubstantial chunk of my world list that I've seen only as "pure" introduced/feral populations - Ruddy Duck, Mandarin, Egyptian Goose, Canada Goose, Barnacle Goose, Greylag Goose, Common Pheasant, Lady Amherst's Pheasant, Monk Parakeet, Ring Necked Parakeet, Common Waxbill, Rock Dove, Red Kite and Osprey would be off my list, despite the fact that arguably, they are far "wilder" than for instance my tick of Red-crowned cranes at a feeding station.

In general... I'd probably go with a compromise of ticking them but be aware you are doing so?
 
Alexjh1 said:
Realistically, there is a not insubstantial chunk of my world list that I've seen only as "pure" introduced/feral populations - Ruddy Duck, Mandarin, Egyptian Goose, Canada Goose, Barnacle Goose, Greylag Goose, Common Pheasant, Lady Amherst's Pheasant, Monk Parakeet, Ring Necked Parakeet, Common Waxbill, Rock Dove, Red Kite and Osprey would be off my list, despite the fact that arguably, they are far "wilder" than for instance my tick of Red-crowned cranes at a feeding station.
Click to expand...

If you've seen Red-crowned Crane, surely you'll also have seen genuine wild Mandarin Duck? And really no Cat. A Barnacle or Greylag Geese, Red Kite or Osprey??? They must be very hard to avoid! :eek!:
 
Nutcracker said:
If you've seen Red-crowned Crane, surely you'll also have seen genuine wild Mandarin Duck? And really no Cat. A Barnacle or Greylag Geese, Red Kite or Osprey??? They must be very hard to avoid! :eek!:
Click to expand...

That trip to Japan was right at the beginning of Winter so I don't think ducks had really accumulated yet: did pretty well for ducks on the sea but didn't really get any freshwater birding done. Bit of a shame, I would have liked some closer views of Baikal teal than my Cambridgeshire one too.

As for the others - my main encounter with Barnacle geese is (what I understand to be) a feral flock on Derwant Water, Greylag geese I may have seen true wild ones at some point but can't confidently say I have (ones on the Swale maybe?) and Osprey I've only ever seen at Rutland. Just remembered I have seen some Red Kites in Wales though, but as I live in Northants 99.9% of my Red Kite sightings are going to be from the reintroduction program.
 
Alexjh1 said:
That trip to Japan was right at the beginning of Winter so I don't think ducks had really accumulated yet: did pretty well for ducks on the sea but didn't really get any freshwater birding done. Bit of a shame, I would have liked some closer views of Baikal teal than my Cambridgeshire one too.

As for the others - my main encounter with Barnacle geese is (what I understand to be) a feral flock on Derwant Water, Greylag geese I may have seen true wild ones at some point but can't confidently say I have (ones on the Swale maybe?) and Osprey I've only ever seen at Rutland. Just remembered I have seen some Red Kites in Wales though, but as I live in Northants 99.9% of my Red Kite sightings are going to be from the reintroduction program.
Click to expand...

OK! Just find it strange to have done a seriously expensive world-class birding trip (Japan) but not northern England (Icelandic Greylags & Svalbard Barnies pretty easy in winter!) or Scotland :t:
 
I spent a summer in Japan for work, and I saw Red-crowned Crane, but completely dipped on Mandarin Ducks. My lifer and only Mandarin still remains a bird I saw in England (on another work trip)!
 
Nutcracker said:
OK! Just find it strange to have done a seriously expensive world-class birding trip (Japan) but not northern England (Icelandic Greylags & Svalbard Barnies pretty easy in winter!) or Scotland :t:
Click to expand...

The problem with Scotland is it's proportionally pretty expensive to get there/accomodation - definitely on my to do list (especially given that dotterel, capercaillie, black grouse, ptarmigan, twite, crossbills and skuas account for a very significant chunk of my missing UK species) but if 1 trip to Scotland costs say... 1/3rd of a trip to Japan I've just ended up prioritising international trips which have given me more bang for my buck.

Think I read something about bargain London-Scotland train routes coming soon though, so that may change!
 
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