Oriental Honey-Buzzard - ID check (1 Viewer)

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Sumit

Well-known member

• Dec 5, 2003

• #1

Respected Sirs,
I have one number raptor from 7,000 feet in the Sikkim Himalayas, India. Seems like it is an Oriental Honey Buzzard (worried after all the stuff I read in the HB vs CB thread!!!). Seems also like it is a Siberian race migrant (female Pernis ptilorhyncus orientalis ??), which is rare for India. The learned can guide me further.
Thanks,
Sumit

 

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Jane Turner

Well-known member

• Dec 5, 2003

• #2

Its got the small head... short arm, long hand and tails shape of a Pernis

 

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logos

Well-known member

• Dec 5, 2003

• #3

Undoubted OHB Sumit, tail pattern is visible amongst several other things. I'll look into racial later but the Simpsons are on TV now...

Spud

 

Andrew Rowlands

Well-known member

• Dec 5, 2003

• #4

Hi Sumit,

It's a Pernis; no Buteo features that I can see.

When was it taken?

It is an adult bird, probably female.

Would the ringers that work the mountain passes in Khazakstan see this type? I think there is a web page of ?Chopek? Pass somewhere.............

Andy.

 

S

Sumit

Well-known member

• Dec 5, 2003

• #5

Thanks folks! we got the Pernis ptilorhyncus bit out of the way, Phew!!!
Andy, this bird and 3 others were seen between November 17th and 20th this year while we were touring in Sikkim. Also had many migrating Steppe Eagles on the trip.
Sumit

 

Jane Turner

Well-known member

• Dec 5, 2003

• #6

Out of curiosity.... how would you be sure that this wasn't a Honey Buzz

 

S

Sumit

Well-known member

• Dec 5, 2003

• #7

Hi Jane,
The ignorant has the 1st go.
I am not sure not having seen one, but since to the best of my knowledge P.apivorus does not extend to India, the burden of selection has to fall on p.ptilorhyncus. I have read somewhere that the two are often considered conspecific. That is the extent I dare to go on this subject.
Cheers!
sumit

 

Jane Turner

Well-known member

• Dec 5, 2003

• #8

So my next question...is how close do the two species get to each other?

 

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logos

Well-known member

• Dec 5, 2003

• #9

apivorus has only five fingers (p6, numbering ascendent, being barely if at all longer than p5) and ptilorhyncus has six fingers (p6 significantly longer than p5) like this bird.

As far as is known the two species do not have regularly overlapping breeding ranges and there are several hundred km between the westernmost breeding apivorus and the westernmost breeding ptilorhyncus.

Spud

 

Andrew Rowlands

Well-known member

• Dec 5, 2003

• #10

Sumit,

Do you think that these birds are on their wintering grounds on that date?

Seems late (compared to what we know of P. apivorus) to be migrating.


Andy.

 

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logos

Well-known member

• Dec 5, 2003

• #11

I think there is a web page of ?Chopek? Pass somewhere.............

Click to expand...

Unfortunately the Chokpak Pass website I know of disappeared some time ago. However, it didn't really deal with nitty gritty identification matters, more about numbers of birds trapped and the species occurring in the area.

I'm working on the subspecies stuff Sumit but it wont be a quick job.

Regarding the possible conspecifity of the two species, I believe there are reports of possible mixed pairs in eastern Kazakstan (presumably in the Altai?) but this is an area where both are uncommon to rare as breeding species.

On the subject of ID, while the primary details referred to above are the most consistent difference, pale OHB, of which there are many (especially in the migratory form orientalis) always lack dark carpal patches on the underwing. This is of no use in dark birds like that shown here by Sumit, of course.

Spud

 

Jane Turner

Well-known member

• Dec 5, 2003

• #12

logos said:

apivorus has only five fingers (p6, numbering ascendent, being barely if at all longer than p5) and ptilorhyncus has six fingers (p6 significantly longer than p5) like this bird.

As far as is known the two species do not have regularly overlapping breeding ranges and there are several hundred km between the westernmost breeding apivorus and the westernmost breeding ptilorhyncus.

Spud

Click to expand...

That would be tough to get on an overhead bird without a photo to study afterwards

 

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logos

Well-known member

• Dec 5, 2003

• #13

It's not too bad with soaring birds and a bit of practice!

Spud

 

Jane Turner

Well-known member

• Dec 6, 2003

• #14

Bearing in mind hw Hb is frequently mistaken for CB and v.v allegedly, that is a quite glib statement!

 

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logos

Well-known member

• Dec 6, 2003

• #15

Sorry, don't understand your point here, what's glib about it?

Perhaps you know of a better way of distinguishing birds with ambiguous plumage or when no plumage detail can be seen?

I don't think most people do/should have a problem distinguishing HB from CB...though some obviously do....I'm unsure why you're raising this point here anyway.

Spud

 

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HH75

Well-known member

• Dec 6, 2003

• #16

Hi Spud,
"I don't think most people do/should have a problem distinguishing HB from CB"
I would have a slight problem,as HB is a real rarity in Ireland and CB is a scarce visitor to Co.Cork,so I don't see them very often!That said,I have seen quite a few around the country(and elsewhere),and would almost certainly be able to pick out a HB providing I saw it well(though I did find HB/CB ID hard in Bulgaria in late Sep.99,but then I'd only seen 1 CB here before going!).
A few of us saw a "buzzard" near Ardmore(Co.Waterford) back in Oct.00(the time of the big HB invasion of the UK),but failed to get enough detail on it to ID it either way with any certainty....
Harry H

 

Jane Turner

Well-known member

• Dec 6, 2003

• #17

logos said:

Sorry, don't understand your point here, what's glib about it?

Perhaps you know of a better way of distinguishing birds with ambiguous plumage or when no plumage detail can be seen?

I don't think most people do/should have a problem distinguishing HB from CB...though some obviously do....I'm unsure why you're raising this point here anyway.

Spud

Click to expand...

I was a drunk and b referring to the Honey buzard thread!