When a new Zeiss binocular? (1 Viewer)

FrankD · Dec 13, 2011

Omid,

I checked out your pics when you first posted them. I like the idea but am confused a bit by what I am seeing in the pic. Is that noticeable field curvature/edge distortion and/or uneven illumination of the image or does it just appear that way because of how far away we are viewing the eyepiece?

Omid · Dec 13, 2011

Here are a few more experimental results using a different setup. We are looking towards a vase about 20m away. The pictures are taken from about 30 cm behind the eyepiece. The eyepiece lens is 36mm in diameter. As you can see the exit pupil is as large as the eyepiece lens.
Another major feature is that you can still see a full image (although different part of the field of view) when looking through the eyepiece from an off-axis angle. There will be aberrations in the off axis image but the image is still visible. In standard binoculars a) the exit pupil is much smaller b) the image is not visible when you look off-axis.

FrankD · Dec 13, 2011

Now you have me interested.

Out of curiousity, have you found reflections off of the eyepiece glass to interfere with the practical nature of the design?

Kammerdiner · Dec 13, 2011

Two questions, Omid:

1) when you spread the photons out like that, so they are everywhere, what happens to the brightness?

2) At this point, why not go digital?

What you've done is pretty cool, but I wonder if it's real application is riflescopes and not binoculars.

Mark

Omid · Dec 13, 2011

FrankD said:
Now you have me interested.
Out of curiousity, have you found reflections off of the eyepiece glass to interfere with the practical nature of the design?

The eyepiece used here is a very cheap one (taken out of a chinese riflescope). It doesn't have best coating material and shows external reflections. I think this can be fixed if a better eyepiece is used or designed specifically for this kind of application. These refelection are not a result of mydesign. The are there in normal binoculars too.

Kammerdiner said:
Two questions, Omid:
1) when you spread the photons out like that, so they are everywhere, what happens to the brightness?
2) At this point, why not go digital?
What you've done is pretty cool, but I wonder if it's real application is riflescopes and not binoculars.
Mark

1: The britness is reduced. The law of conservation of energy applies so when the light flux going into the scope is spread over many directions you will have reduced brightness.

2: This is a purly optical solution. No batteries and no electronics. Sure, you can simulate or replace this with digital capture and playback on an LCD or something like that but that's a different thing.

JabaliHunter · Dec 13, 2011

henry link said:
I would happy enough to see several incremental improvements in the optics.
First, a different design choice in the off-axis characteristics of the eyepieces. I wouldn't object to SV like performance, but as others have said perfectly sharp edges are not really necessary. The weakest thing about the current FL's is astigmatism beginning at 12-15 degrees off-axis.
Second, better control of lateral color.
Third, an increase in the bandwidth of the T* coatings, which have good peak transmission at green/yellow wavelengths, but roll off too quickly in both the red and the blue.

Kammerdiner said:
Henry's right. [...]
A suggestion for something radical? Super-lightweight with some real space-age materials. Imagine a 23 ounce full-field (400'+) 8x42.

That would do it for me! Especially in a large field of view (like in the 7x42) 8/8.5x50 or 10x56 :smoke:

ceasar · Dec 14, 2011

Omid,
Is this anything (in concept) like the old Galilean binoculars which have no exit pupils? When I was about 12 years old my father gave me a 4 x 40 Galilean binocular for my birthday which I still have. I inquired here a while back whether it had a 10mm exit pupil but was informed that these binoculars do not have exit pupils.
Bob

Omid · Dec 14, 2011

ceasar said:
Omid,
Is this anything (in concept) like the old Galilean binoculars which have no exit pupils? When I was about 12 years old my father gave me a 4 x 40 Galilean binocular for my birthday which I still have. I inquired here a while back whether it had a 10mm exit pupil but was informed that these binoculars do not have exit pupils.
Bob

You mentioned an interesting point about the Galilean design. But, no, this is not a Galilean design. The eyepice is a positive lense as used in the standard Keplerian design. I am not fully clear on where exactly the exit pupil -if there is one- will be in my design. One way to explain this is that we have an exit pupil which is as wide as the eyepiece lens and is located right where the lens itself is. This is to say, the system has zero eyerelief in theory. But, in practice, the eye can be anywhere behind the eypice and see an image comfortably. See the attached image.

NDhunter · Dec 14, 2011

Omid said:
You mentioned an interesting point about the Galilean design. But, no, this is not a Galilean design. The eyepice is a positive lense as used in the standard Keplerian design. I am not fully clear on where exactly the exit pupil -if there is one- will be in my design. One way to explain this is that we have an exit pupil which is as wide as the eyepiece lens and is located right where the lens itself is. This is to say, the system has zero eyerelief in theory. But, in practice, the eye can be anywhere behind the eypice and see an image comfortably. See the attached image.

Omid:
This is an interesting idea, but with a riflescope you are steadying the optic
with the shoulder and foreman in a brace position, and so the eye is a couple of inches behind the ocular.
With a binocular the view is braced with both hands and to the eye sockets. I don't use eyeglasses so that makes it easier. Try observing through your binoculars held 2" away, not very steady.

Omid · Dec 14, 2011

NDhunter said:
Omid:
This is an interesting idea, but with a riflescope you are steadying the optic
with the shoulder and foreman in a brace position, and so the eye is a couple of inches behind the ocular.
With a binocular the view is braced with both hands and to the eye sockets. I don't use eyeglasses so that makes it easier. Try observing through your binoculars held 2" away, not very steady.

Yes, the stock helps steady the view but think about the following scenaro rather than shooting from a benchrest:

A hunter is walking in the field and all of a sudden he sees a deer at 150 yards. He quickly mounts his rifle and tries to find the deer in his riflescope. Given your own experince

a) How many seconds does it take for an average hunter to properly position his head and find the deer in the scope?

b) Imagine that our hunter finaly finds the deer, aims and fires his weapon. Recoil jerks the gun and makes the shooter to loose his view through the scope. How many seconds does it take for him to re-position his head behind the scope and find the -now running- deer for a potential second shot?

c) How easy is it to follow and aim at a running deer using a traditional riflescope with say 4mm exit pupil?

Now, replace your traditional riflescope with one that has 36mm exit pupil and never blacks out when you look through it from an off-axis position. If you answer the same questions using the new scope you appreciate that there is some merit in using this new design for riflescopes too

NDhunter · Dec 14, 2011

Omid said:
Here are a few more experimental results using a different setup. We are looking towards a vase about 20m away. The pictures are taken from about 30 cm behind the eyepiece. The eyepiece lens is 36mm in diameter. As you can see the exit pupil is as large as the eyepiece lens.
Another major feature is that you can still see a full image (although different part of the field of view) when looking through the eyepiece from an off-axis angle. There will be aberrations in the off axis image but the image is still visible. In standard binoculars a) the exit pupil is much smaller b) the image is not visible when you look off-axis.

Omid:

I'm still studying these pictures, and am wondering what power X
you are demonstrating here? How many lenses are needed and how is
the quality of resolution? I suppose the handheld limit is similar to
binoculars 12 X ?

Jerry

Pileatus · Dec 15, 2011

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perseid28 · Dec 15, 2011

I subscribed to the newsletter on the "Zeiss Experience" site recommended in the 2nd post on this thread. Received an email this morning that was a little less cryptic than the site itself but did not give much new information:

"
Concentrated innovation. Made light.

The argument for this innovation is the only heavyweight aspect of it. As a hunter and nature watcher, everything else makes your decision for our newest development especially light and easy. For example, the compact size for maximum freedom of movement. Or the low weight thanks to the use of ultra-light, high quality materials. With this new compact lightweight, your walks through the wild will be even longer and more pleasant, because with Carl Zeiss, you're entering a new dimension.
"

And:

"
Nature in high-definition.

Imagine a whole new level of experience. Watch in high definition. Our most recent development once again sets a new standard for this class. With a technology that makes observation optics the most natural thing in the world. The colour reproduction is especially neutral and clear thanks to the tried and tested T*-multi-layer coating and optimised light transmission, so you're guaranteed extraordinary viewing experiences, even in twilight.
"

From that first bit, it seems as though Zeiss is making a new compact bino. But the 8x20 Victory already rates very highly among compacts in reviews, and I am not sure what improvements to that model would warrant this amount of hype they are generating. Once a binocular weights under 10 oz, it would seem pointless to reduce the weight further. The only meaningful advanced I could see are increasing the aperture without increasing size too much, and/or increasing the field of view.

The second part is too much for me; I can't even guess at what new feature this predicts for the binoculars. There are many binoculars on the market that already have faithful color reproduction, so I am not sure what this is all about.

Well, there's my two cents; hopefully others can give a bit more insight.

michaelboustead · Dec 15, 2011

I got the email also. The email left me confused not curious-not very effective. If Zeiss has something to tell me then tell me- if not then not- pretty close to SPAM.

Mike

Omid · Dec 15, 2011

NDhunter said:
Omid:

I'm still studying these pictures, and am wondering what power X
you are demonstrating here? How many lenses are needed and how is
the quality of resolution? I suppose the handheld limit is similar to
binoculars 12 X ?

Jerry

The first pictures I posted in this thread (post # 42) are 10X. The second set (post # 62) I am not sure about the exact focal length of the eyepice and objective lenses I used. Power could be about 3X.

OK, It is probably not the best place to continue the discussion on this design here. This is a topic on Zeiss rumors and new products. So, lets get back to its standard path and leave major departures from the norm aside. My intention wasn't to hjack the topic. I just wanted to make a point here and show that the age of major changes in binocular design is not over yet. After over 100 years of its initial design, it is still possible to make major changes and improvements. Let's not be content with another 2% refinement in this or that factor. Let's ask for and suggest real innovation.

spyglass · Dec 16, 2011

Seems like the next big thing would be digital imaging in real time, compact enuf for a handheld instrument (kinda like what the spy satellites do). Downside is, not having the checkbook ready (other than for earnest $) but preparation to sign a 20yr mortgage....n'cest pas?

etudiant · Dec 16, 2011

spyglass said:
Seems like the next big thing would be digital imaging in real time, compact enuf for a handheld instrument (kinda like what the spy satellites do). Downside is, not having the checkbook ready (other than for earnest $) but preparation to sign a 20yr mortgage....n'cest pas?

That was my view as well, but Omid's postings show that there is still considerable possibility for innovation in conventional optics design. So we might yet be surprised.

lilcrazy2 · Dec 17, 2011

Omid
Guess I am curious what is different about your design that optics manufacturers have not already put into their pistol scopes which have full EP and are held at arms length??

Tom

Omid · Dec 17, 2011

lilcrazy2 said:
Omid
Guess I am curious what is different about your design that optics manufacturers have not already put into their pistol scopes which have full EP and are held at arms length??

Tom

Good point! These are simple Keplarian telescopes with eyepiece designed to have longer eyerelief. Pick one up and look through it youself. You'll see that

a) They are very sensitive to eyeplacement (a slight movement of eye off the optical axis will lead to image blackout).

b) You don't see full feld of view if you move your eye closer to the eyepiece.

My design is not a classic Keplarian telescpe. You can see the image comfortably from far or close to the eyepiece and also off the optical axis. The best image quality is when you look along the optical axis but you can also see the image otherwise. The contrast and image quality is reduced though.

AlbertoJ · Dec 21, 2011

My ideal binocular (is only my opinion):
(I´ve published this at Leica forum too)

Optical
-Contrast: Swarovision.
-CA: Swarovision.
-Edge (sharpness and astigmatism): Swarovision.
-Pincushion distortion and rolling ball effect: Leica Ultravid, Zeiss FL, Swarovski SLC HD.
-Light transmission: Zeiss FL, Leica Ultravid, Swarovski SV and SLC HD.

Body
-Size: Leica Ultravid.
-Ergonomy: Leica Ultravid with a shorter hinge(like Swarovision), Swarovision.
-Composite materials: Magnesium inside, titanium hinge, rubber armor.
-Focuser: Zeiss FL, Nikon EDG.
-Look: Leica Ultravid, closely followed by Swarovski SLC HD and Swarovision.

Other
-Models: 7x35, 8x40, 8x42 and 8.5x42.
-Customer and technician repair service: Swarovski.

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