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Cheating or digital imaging? (1 Viewer)

"Scientific value"?

I can't see how that has been impacted upon by Mark moving the bird slightly to one side - and besides, I doubt many of us are doing this in order to contribute to the body of scientific knowledge out there...
 
Keith Reeder said:
"Scientific value"?

I doubt many of us are doing this in order to contribute to the body of scientific knowledge out there...
Fair enough, but that is a shame.
 
I’ve hung back a while before adding comment on this thread just to see how it develops. One essential point that seems not to have been explored is that photography itself is not representative of the truth of what we see with the naked eye, this is down to the limitations of the photographic equipment to start with.

We can manipulate an image just by the way we compose it to include(or not include) the surroundings, or by choice of shutter speed, slow to show movement blur, fast to freeze the action, manipulations of the image already, digital or film! We can also affect the way the subject appears in relation to its environment by choice of lens and by choice of aperture to increase or decrease depth of field, again the photographer’s creative input is manipulating the end result, DOF is particularly relevant when using longer focal lengths which have shallow depth of field even when stopped down. To explain my point here, take the example of looking at a flock of birds, with the naked eye all of the birds are in focus, but a 500mm, for example, will only focus on the small area of the plane of focus, this area can be increased by using a smaller aperture, but by using digital technology one could focus individually on each bird in the flock and composite the resulting frames into one image that is far more representative of the ‘truth’ of the scene, so what some would call cheating can also be seen as creating a more honest image.

An image can also be manipulated by choice of film, methods of development, the grade of paper used for printing, cropping has been done in the darkroom since the birth of photography, as has colour and contrast adjustments, yes all processes that can be done in Photoshop/PSP whatever. (On the point of cropping I personally think that in this forums galleries it would be good for beginners if it were declared, as there seems to be a few threads relating to how to get closer to birds where newcomers are despondent with their results.) These manipulations are of course not perceived as such as they are essential to presenting the image in a form that we feel is close to what was viewed in the field.

In the controlled circumstances of shooting at a feeding station it is possible to arrange the perch and other elements of the shot in a way that makes for artistic composition, removing unwanted twigs, and items that may cause distracting shadows, highlights etc prior to shutter release is not really any different to cloning them out in post production, so I don’t have a problem with this either. (Whether the bird lands in the right place is another matter)

As for the movement of the Razorbill in the shot that bought this thread about, well I don’t see a problem there at all, undeclared no one would question it, and frankly a nano-second difference in the timing of shutter release would have bought about something similar anyhow.

When it comes down to adding elements shot at different times, as the point re zoo animals placed in natural settings raises I have several different views on this depending on the purpose of the picture, if it is to illustrate some natural behaviour or other difficult to achieve photographically aspect of a creatures lifestyle, then I do not see an issue, yes I would prefer if its declared, but unless its done very expertly it stands out like a sore thumb and will be obvious.
When done to deliberately deceive i.e. false rarity record of some bird photographed abroad and placed in a recognisable place then that’s just not on. In a photo library catalogue that I have there is a picture of a Great White shark attacking a Polar Bear through a hole in the ice, its so crap its funny……….

Having worked in visual effects within the movie industry for 25 years I have been involved with the creation of many complex scenes that involve many separate image elements being put together as one image, the truth is that to do it well it has to be done in a very controlled manner, matching such things as the direction(s) of lighting, the density of shadows and highlights, the effects of atmospherics (haze etc) the correct scale of the various elements, and getting exact match colour correction is very complex, so the chances of finding two or more images in your files that would work together to make one realistic final shot is pretty slim.
Anyone who can go out and shoot images that are intended to be put together and work well is actually facing quite a challenge, and I take my hat off to them if they achieve a worthy result, far from cheating, I know it is considerably more difficult than many would think!

Since the dawn of digital cameras, photography has advanced greatly, previously I felt that wildlife photography was beginning to get a bit stale, the freedom from film cost and the better automation of exposure, focusing etc has meant that photographers have been able to push the limits quite significantly, so my real attitude to this is that digital imaging is a powerfully creative tool, and I do not think that anyone should take to much heed of others opinions in a way that inhibits them from exploring the possibilities that it allows, if we all stuck to rigid rules photography would become very boring, and I for one enjoy seeing others being creative and helping to advance what we do.
 
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Thank you Nigel that is exactly how I feel about the subject but couldn't put it across as well as you have done, its nice to get an expert opinion, it is a subject that will always be open for debate as to what should or shouldn't be allowed.Thank you for coming in on the subject and giving your opinion its greatly appreciated.
 
paul goode said:
Very well put reply Nigel. Totally agree and that saves me attempting a reply after a bottle of Merlot. B :)

Cheers Paul, I did much the same last night after a mates 50th, its easy to type utter cobblers after a few too many sherberts....
 
nigelblake said:
I’ve hung back a while before adding comment on this thread just to see how it develops. One essential point that seems not to have been explored is that photography itself is not representative of the truth of what we see with the naked eye, this is down to the limitations of the photographic equipment to start with.

We can manipulate an image just by the way we compose it to include(or not include) the surroundings, or by choice of shutter speed, slow to show movement blur, fast to freeze the action, manipulations of the image already, digital or film! We can also affect the way the subject appears in relation to its environment by choice of lens and by choice of aperture to increase or decrease depth of field, again the photographer’s creative input is manipulating the end result, DOF is particularly relevant when using longer focal lengths which have shallow depth of field even when stopped down. To explain my point here, take the example of looking at a flock of birds, with the naked eye all of the birds are in focus, but a 500mm, for example, will only focus on the small area of the plane of focus, this area can be increased by using a smaller aperture, but by using digital technology one could focus individually on each bird in the flock and composite the resulting frames into one image that is far more representative of the ‘truth’ of the scene, so what some would call cheating can also be seen as creating a more honest image.

An image can also be manipulated by choice of film, methods of development, the grade of paper used for printing, cropping has been done in the darkroom since the birth of photography, as has colour and contrast adjustments, yes all processes that can be done in Photoshop/PSP whatever. (On the point of cropping I personally think that in this forums galleries it would be good for beginners if it were declared, as there seems to be a few threads relating to how to get closer to birds where newcomers are despondent with their results.) These manipulations are of course not perceived as such as they are essential to presenting the image in a form that we feel is close to what was viewed in the field.

In the controlled circumstances of shooting at a feeding station it is possible to arrange the perch and other elements of the shot in a way that makes for artistic composition, removing unwanted twigs, and items that may cause distracting shadows, highlights etc prior to shutter release is not really any different to cloning them out in post production, so I don’t have a problem with this either. (Whether the bird lands in the right place is another matter)

As for the movement of the Razorbill in the shot that bought this thread about, well I don’t see a problem there at all, undeclared no one would question it, and frankly a nano-second difference in the timing of shutter release would have bought about something similar anyhow.

When it comes down to adding elements shot at different times, as the point re zoo animals placed in natural settings raises I have several different views on this depending on the purpose of the picture, if it is to illustrate some natural behaviour or other difficult to achieve photographically aspect of a creatures lifestyle, then I do not see an issue, yes I would prefer if its declared, but unless its done very expertly it stands out like a sore thumb and will be obvious.
When done to deliberately deceive i.e. false rarity record of some bird photographed abroad and placed in a recognisable place then that’s just not on. In a photo library catalogue that I have there is a picture of a Great White shark attacking a Polar Bear through a hole in the ice, its so crap its funny……….

Having worked in visual effects within the movie industry for 25 years I have been involved with the creation of many complex scenes that involve many separate image elements being put together as one image, the truth is that to do it well it has to be done in a very controlled manner, matching such things as the direction(s) of lighting, the density of shadows and highlights, the effects of atmospherics (haze etc) the correct scale of the various elements, and getting exact match colour correction is very complex, so the chances of finding two or more images in your files that would work together to make one realistic final shot is pretty slim.
Anyone who can go out and shoot images that are intended to be put together and work well is actually facing quite a challenge, and I take my hat off to them if they achieve a worthy result, far from cheating, I know it is considerably more difficult than many would think!

Since the dawn of digital cameras, photography has advanced greatly, previously I felt that wildlife photography was beginning to get a bit stale, the freedom from film cost and the better automation of exposure, focusing etc has meant that photographers have been able to push the limits quite significantly, so my real attitude to this is that digital imaging is a powerfully creative tool, and I do not think that anyone should take to much heed of others opinions in a way that inhibits them from exploring the possibilities that it allows, if we all stuck to rigid rules photography would become very boring, and I for one enjoy seeing others being creative and helping to advance what we do.
I heartily agree with all of the above.

And I appreciate that some people may want to just make artistically composed pictures. And perhaps I am a trifle harsh in appearing to attack them (I apologise if that is the case).

But it is just that I would personally not choose to alter an image compositionally OUTSIDE the camera to make an animal appear to do something it in fact did not do.

Even if it was just to make something fly in a bit of space it did not in reality, occupy(Pedantic I know).

But even that would go against the inner(and indeed outer) naturalist and observer in me.

Here is an analogy: I keep a natural history diary and would not dream of making an unnatural or embellished observation just because it made for a better READ than the truth.
 
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http://commfaculty.fullerton.edu/lester/writings/faking.html#bfifteen
Found this while failing to find thread read somewhere about quite a big story last year (?) about news photographer who got sacked because he combined two images to produce a third composite with "an improved composition" which he then submitted to his editor. 'Gainst the rules so he had to go (or maybe his boss didn't like him). Seem to recall it was a picture of a soldier and seated civilians. Of course he could have conveyed a sense to suit his own political agenda by eg. making the soldier look large by choice of viewpoint, angle and lens. Or from a large sequence of pictures he could choose the photo where the soldier looked most threatening. I guess the worry is indeed the potential ease of execution and difficulty in detecting what "artistry" is at work in post processing. While pretty much anything goes in advertising now, seems sets of rules are still being imposed to try to protect the good name (?) of photojournalism and nature photography in more prestigious publications. Here's a corker :
http://www.naturephoto.hu/natgeo_english/index.html
We now await a Hungarian government financed survey to assess the relationship between intake of sherbet and spelling ability in adults...
 
normjackson said:
http://commfaculty.fullerton.edu/lester/writings/faking.html#bfifteen
Found this while failing to find thread read somewhere about quite a big story last year (?) about news photographer who got sacked because he combined two images to produce a third composite with "an improved composition" which he then submitted to his editor. 'Gainst the rules so he had to go (or maybe his boss didn't like him). Seem to recall it was a picture of a soldier and seated civilians. Of course he could have conveyed a sense to suit his own political agenda by eg. making the soldier look large by choice of viewpoint, angle and lens. Or from a large sequence of pictures he could choose the photo where the soldier looked most threatening. I guess the worry is indeed the potential ease of execution and difficulty in detecting what "artistry" is at work in post processing. While pretty much anything goes in advertising now, seems sets of rules are still being imposed to try to protect the good name (?) of photojournalism and nature photography in more prestigious publications. Here's a corker :
http://www.naturephoto.hu/natgeo_english/index.html
We now await a Hungarian government financed survey to assess the relationship between intake of sherbet and spelling ability in adults...

Very interesting reading. A fews ago there was an artist/painter, who used to do perfect copies of the old masters, Constable, Turner, etc. You couldn't tell them from the real thing, and there's nothing illegal about that.

However, he started selling them as the real thing and that is illegal, I believe he earned a term of imprisonment for it. The irony here is, since he passed away a few years ago, his forgeries have become collectors items and worth a bob or two.
 
Norm
Thanks for that link about the Mayfly (Kingfisher) article, very interesting. I 've just tried to find out what the follow up was on a search engine but it seems to have just got brushed under the carpet. Very worrying when one of natural historys' top magazines behaves like an ostrich!
 
I think it matters how much you manipulate. It is OK to make tiny corrections, but not ones which change impression of the picture. If you feel that you turned average picture into good one or good one into perfect - it was too much.

Lots of value of wildlife photography is that it is difficult. It is hard that bird flies symmetrically between two others. Or a shy animal shows without pieces of grass in the foreground. With PhotoShop it is cake.

In the same way perfect pictures of, say, sunset or Mute Swan will not win any nature photography prize. Simply getting photograph of that is not difficult.

Computer-enhanced pictures of course have value in education, advertisement, etc. but they are just not the league of wildlife pictures...

nigelblake said:
Having worked in visual effects within the movie industry for 25 years I have been involved with the creation of many complex scenes

...like in the movie industry you have separate Oscars for photography and for special effects. :)
 
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jurek said:
...like in the movie industry you have separate Oscars for photography and for special effects. :)

Just to clarify that Visual effects and Special effects are very different disciplines........
 
johnrobinson said:
Norm
Interesting about the Kingfisher picture. They repeat in the article several times that a Kingfisher will not or cannot take dead prey.- NOT TRUE !
Seen it several times.
Cheers
JohnR

Agree with you John I have also seen Kingfishers take dead prey...... I also do not entirely agree with other aspects of the picture analysis that goes with this story, one aspect of high speed flash photography is that it often shows up patterns of behavior and/or postures assumed by the subject that were previously not well known to naturalists, this could be the case with the Kingfisher/Mayfly shot, although I suspect it isn't.
The converse effect of the attitude to image manipulation is that perfectly legitimate straight images that are outside of the parameters of what is generally expected as normal can be pilloried as cheated shots, and have profound effect on the photographers reputation.

Taking the Kingfisher controversy as an example it could equally be possible to suggest that Steven Daltons brilliant shot of the Swallow drinking could be faked ( I am not in any way suggesting it is) certainly it would not be that difficult with a stuffed bird, and a carefully fired jet of air from a submerged tube to create the splash.
 
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nigelblake said:
one aspect of high speed flash photography is that it often shows up patterns of behavior and/or postures assumed by the subject that were previously not well known to naturalists, this could be the case with the Kingfisher/Mayfly shot,
And there Nigel you have made my case for me!

That is a case where the scientific value of a high speed shot could potentially be devalued by tampering.

Does this show new behavior?

We will never know unless the photographer discloses.

And should we believe him even then?
 
I think there is very little doubt that digital manipulation has devalued the scientific value of wildlife photography.

Whether people care or not is a whole other issue.
 
mothman said:
And there Nigel you have made my case for me!

On the contrary, the most pertinent point about the Kingfisher/Mayfly image is that it was shot on film in 1996, and is not a digitally originated image.
This thread questions whether digital image adjustment is cheating, and the first example of a suspected faked image predates digital cameras by several years.
 
mothman said:
I think there is very little doubt that digital manipulation has devalued the scientific value of wildlife photography.

Whether people care or not is a whole other issue.

I would have to disagree here too, digital and conventional photography have contributed a great deal of new knowledge to science, and the manipulation of digital images has allowed scientists to learn even more because it is possible to enhance detail not visible on analogue images!
 
nigelblake said:
On the contrary, the most pertinent point about the Kingfisher/Mayfly image is that it was shot on film in 1996, and is not a digitally originated image.
This thread questions whether digital image adjustment is cheating, and the first example of a suspected faked image predates digital cameras by several years.
Yes but digital imaging proliferates tampering by making it accessible to relatively clumsy amateurs like me rather than experts like yourself.

Usually that is no bad thing.

However in this case I think that the documentary value of nat hist shots is lessened by that revolution.
 
nigelblake said:
I would have to disagree here too, digital and conventional photography have contributed a great deal of new knowledge to science, and the manipulation of digital images has allowed scientists to learn even more because it is possible to enhance detail not visible on analogue images!
I agree and I don't think I have ever disputed that.

I am talking about the specific action of re composing animals within a frame or adding elements that were not originally there simply to make for a prettier picture.

I love my digital SLR and I happily take digital wildlife shots on a regular basis, process them with a RAW program and alter the settings in photoshop, but stop there.I see no dichotomy in that.
 
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