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Does EMR harm living organisms?

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Old Saturday 8th December 2018, 09:13   #1426
Purple Heron
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@ Kevin Yes, 2.0 is sci-fi. But it raises the very real, non-sci-fi issue of whether EMR kills birds, and this has got the telecoms companies upset because they don't want the public to know that EMR kills birds, so I think it's fantastic that the film got made and that the cell phone companies have not been able to prevent its release--it's out. As for the comedy act on RT, my point is that even comedians are starting to take the issue of EMR effects seriously, and I think Lee Camp did a good, humorous and informative show that will reach a lot of people and make them think about the issue. Good for RT for airing it! You might want to ask yourself, why didn't an American broadcast company air it? Too many vested interests maybe?

@all

An extremely interesting new development to do with millimeter waves used for 5G. We have been told, repeatedly, that mm waves do not travel far, but this turns out not to be true, and in fact they can travel over ten kilometers, and are not blocked by hills or trees. The implications for nature are huge, since it is expected that 5G will especially target insects and amphibians. See the article "Millimeter Waves Travel More Than 10 Kilometers in Rural Virginia" at https://spectrum.ieee.org/tech-talk/...rural-virginia

Also see the paper: "Planetary electromagnetic pollution: it is time to assess its impact"

Bandara P, Carpenter DO. Planetary electromagnetic pollution: it is time to assess its impact. The Lancet. 2(12):Pe512-e514, December 01, 2018 .https://doi.org/10.1016/S2542-5196(18)30221-3.

Download open access paper:

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/l...221-3/fulltext

"As the Planetary Health Alliance moves forward after a productive second annual meeting, a discussion on the rapid global proliferation of artificial electromagnetic fields would now be apt. The most notable is the blanket of radiofrequency electromagnetic radiation, largely microwave radiation generated for wireless communication and surveillance technologies, as mounting scientific evidence suggests that prolonged exposure to radiofrequency electromagnetic radiation has serious biological and health effects. However, public exposure regulations in most countries continue to be based on the guidelines of the International Commission on Non-Ionizing Radiation Protection and Institute of Electrical and Electronics Engineers, which were established in the 1990s on the belief that only acute thermal effects are hazardous. Prevention of tissue heating by radiofrequency electromagnetic radiation is now proven to be ineffective in preventing biochemical and physiological interference. For example, acute non-thermal exposure has been shown to alter human brain metabolism by NIH scientists, electrical activity in the brain, and systemic immune responses. Chronic exposure has been associated with increased oxidative stress and DNA damage and cancer risk. Laboratory studies, including large rodent studies by the US National Toxicology Program and Ramazzini Institute of Italy, confirm these biological and health effects in vivo. As we address the threats to human health from the changing environmental conditions due to human activity, the increasing exposure to artificial electromagnetic radiation needs to be included in this discussion."

Also, from someone who has seen 2.0:

CELLPHONES HORROR MOVIE. REVIEW FROM A COLLEAGUE: I saw that the 2.0 was showing here in Portland, so my husband and I went yesterday to a 3D version of the film. It was quite an experience! A 21st Century version of Godzilla - with English subtitles and LOTS of animation and drama. Really fun overall (although a few scenes were a bit gruesome to watch). Sort of a dark comedy - but the underlying theme was indeed about cell tower radiation killing birds and they cover this issue with a serious and deep sense of loss.

(For those of you who know about the Bollywood film genre - this is a spectacular display of everything that makes Indian film experiences enjoyable.)

For those of us working on this issue, it is DEFINITELY worth seeing! SPOILER ALERT: There were some amazing scenes about telecom executives and government agencies denying harm, etc. etc. (And a few scenes many of us will relate to as activists trying to get others to pay attention to an issue about which almost no one wants to hear.)

The issue about the disappearance of birds in urban areas is prominent in India news articles - not so much here in the U.S. But, the movie absolutely makes a strong statement about microwave radiation - not just about birds, but also about the social toll phones are taking on people's lives.

2.0 trailer (actual film does have English subtitles):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qOl_7qfPOM


And finally, for those interested in reading studies (a minority, I know), see a list of useful studies on 5G and millimeter waves here

https://ehtrust.org/scientific-resea...5g-and-health/
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Old Saturday 8th December 2018, 11:53   #1427
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Some time ago I talked about the extreme aggression f dogs we encountered in the north of Greece, and my suggestion that this sudden and extremely marked hostility from canines was greeted with much derision by you lot. However, I am not the only person who has made this connection, and a recent incident in Spain--where a couple living near three cell towers were killed by their own dogs--may cause you to reconsider.

Two people in Spain have recently died as a result of an attack from their own dogs
The electromagnetic radiation of the antennae increases irritability.
The investigations that are promoted on this terrible event should take into account the hypothesis that the electromagnetic radiation emitted by the facilities close to the house could have influenced the abnormal behaviour of the dogs, writes Asociación Vallisoletana de [email protected] por las Antenas de Telecomunicaciones - AVAATE

Here's the link: www.avaate.org/spip.php?article2787
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Old Saturday 8th December 2018, 22:28   #1428
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Purple Heron View Post
Some time ago I talked about the extreme aggression f dogs we encountered in the north of Greece, and my suggestion that this sudden and extremely marked hostility from canines was greeted with much derision by you lot. However, I am not the only person who has made this connection, and a recent incident in Spain--where a couple living near three cell towers were killed by their own dogs--may cause you to reconsider.

Two people in Spain have recently died as a result of an attack from their own dogs
The electromagnetic radiation of the antennae increases irritability.
The investigations that are promoted on this terrible event should take into account the hypothesis that the electromagnetic radiation emitted by the facilities close to the house could have influenced the abnormal behaviour of the dogs, writes Asociación Vallisoletana de [email protected] por las Antenas de Telecomunicaciones - AVAATE

Here's the link: www.avaate.org/spip.php?article2787
Hi Diana,

Also, note there are eight (8) attachments to the article that can be downloaded directly as .pdf documents. Very convenient! One of them is a comprehensive statistical re-analysis of the Navarro et al (2003) study that will take me a while to digest.

Basically, there is a lot of competent science to be found in this area, but the findings don't necessarily fit into a tidy engineering or regulatory framework, certainly not the current one.

Good work.

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Old Sunday 9th December 2018, 12:33   #1429
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A third of bird species in Wales are in "significant decline"

A BBC article a few days old notes that a third of bird species in Wales are in "significant decline". This is alarming, and it certainly resembles the type of thing I am seeing here in Greece.

Here's the link: https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-wales-46441212

Naturally, the RSPB and BTO are blaming that old chestnut, climate change, with habitat loss thrown in for good measure. Sure. Blame everything on climate change--it's the easy out these days. You don't have to bother to explain exactly HOW climate change is to blame for the bird declines, you just say "climate change" as if that phrase itself explains everything.

The thing is, I've been to Wales. The north of Wales is empty--sheep pasture and mountain and forest. The article says that 90% of Wales is farmed--I guess that's true if you include sheep farming, but you don't go around spraying your sheep pastures with pesticides since it tends to kill the sheep. I note that no one is blaming pesticides for the bird declines in this case, just "agricultural practices" whatever that may mean. And it's the farmland and woodland species that are most affected.

Naturally, the article doesn't mention cell towers or EMR. We already know that the nature NGOs, the RSPB and the BTO included, are never, ever to going to blame anything on EMR. It would upset their corporate sponsors. There will of course be plenty of cell towers in Wales, just as there are everywhere. And they will be emitting EMR all the time, just as they do everywhere.

Noteworthy is that fact that breeding starlings have declined 72% between 1995-2016. This mirrors the sparrow decline, which started about the same time, and both declines pretty much start with the spread of 2G cell towers. Maybe someone will write a paper to suggest that starlings are also dying of traffic fumes? That won't wash in North Wales--there isn't enough traffic.

However, EMR causes oxidative stress and DNA damage. EMR is an environmental toxin, and it interacts with other environmental toxins such as pesticides. Furthermore, EMR (and the cell towers that emit it) cause habitat loss; they make whole areas of the countryside uninhabitable. It is high time someone from the nature NGOs realized this. With EMR, we know what the mechanism of harm is. What exactly is the mechanism of harm for climate change?

I know some of you are going to jump down my throat and point out that not all bird species are declining, that great tits, red kites, Canada geese and a few other species are increasing. Great tits aren't declining here, either--I don't know why except that I found one study showing they have larger clutches of eggs, and greater volume per egg, when they nest under power lines. However, that too indicates that EMR has an effect.

As for the other birds, I don't know. Increasing numbers do not necessarily mean that these species are unaffected by EMR; and there may be other factors at play. But the fact remains that a great many species are declining, and it is high time to seriously consider the role EMR plays in these declines.
I'm not saying EMR is the sole reason for declining bird populations. However, what is happening in Wales sounds a lot like what's happening here. Since bird populations are declining worldwide, it is certainly worth considering what the common factors are: EMR from cell towers is most certainly one of those, and we do know the mechanism of harm.


Meanwhile, the case of the two owners being killed by their own dogs is not the only recent case in Spain; there has been another:
Mother and her daughter die after being attacked by their dogs in Madrid
http://newseuropa.es/419218-2/
There is no mention of where cell towers are in relation to the house where the incident occurred, but you have to wonder. I also wonder about Wi-Fi, which is also EMR, and which I personally think accounted for the aggressive behaviour of dogs in the north of Greece. It is not usual for people to be killed by their own dogs, and as these two were clearly house pets, it doesn't seem likely that they were being grossly mistreated.

@ Ed Thank you for pointing out to everyone the PDFs at the bottom of the article on homicidal dogs. In these days of pervasive cell towers and Wi-Fi, a great many people seem to be experiencing a lot of the symptoms described by Navarro and others: irritability, fatigue, inability to concentrate and to remember things, etc. The question is, when are people going to start joining the dots?

Last edited by Purple Heron : Sunday 9th December 2018 at 12:40.
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Old Sunday 9th December 2018, 12:45   #1430
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"Meanwhile, the case of the two owners being killed by their own dogs is not the only recent case in Spain; there has been another:
Mother and her daughter die after being attacked by their dogs in Madrid
http://newseuropa.es/419218-2/
There is no mention of where cell towers are in relation to the house where the incident occurred, but you have to wonder. I also wonder about Wi-Fi, which is also EMR, and which I personally think accounted for the aggressive behaviour of dogs in the north of Greece."

You could not make this up. I declare the scientific method officially dead.
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Old Monday 10th December 2018, 03:04   #1431
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As a "ghost reader" of this thread for a while, I thought I would finally comment, since the thread has been revived.

First, I haven't read all of the papers (hopefully I will get to the point where I can understand these articles and papers better) but do read most of the posts from everyone, from amateur to Ph.D.

I must say that I'm not convinced either way yet. I do have some concerns about EMR and I'm certainly not convinced that it's harmless, but on the other side I haven't seen any definitive proof to say that it's harmful.

I am disappointed that Diana (Purple Heron) posts examples of correlations that are not proven as causation. I'm also disappointed with her apparent reluctance to acknowledge carefully written arguments from experienced forum members.

I'll continue to follow this thread, but I fear it will not go very far in the end.
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Old Monday 10th December 2018, 03:16   #1432
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. . .I must say that I'm not convinced either way yet. I do have some concerns about EMR and I'm certainly not convinced that it's harmless, but on the other side I haven't seen any definitive proof to say that it's harmful.
In the meantime, what are you doing about your phone? Keeping it and risk getting your brains scrambled and sperm count reduced or playing it safe and getting rid of it?
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Old Monday 10th December 2018, 14:07   #1433
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I must say that I'm not convinced either way yet. I do have some concerns about EMR and I'm certainly not convinced that it's harmless, but on the other side I haven't seen any definitive proof to say that it's harmful.
Well "definitive" on environmental issues is always going to be tough, since (to me) it implies nearly 100% proof.

Trick is "at what point does it seem reasonable to take action."

I can't say I've seen that, at least during the period when others in this thread responded in great detail about PH's source material.

Otherwise, you're preaching to the choir. It "seems like" EMR can't be completely harmless, but on the flip side, I don't see any reason to think it is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by birdmeister View Post
I am disappointed that Diana (Purple Heron) posts examples of correlations that are not proven as causation. I'm also disappointed with her apparent reluctance to acknowledge carefully written arguments from experienced forum members.
My biggest issue is if you apply a loose form of Occam's Razor, there are far more likely causes of the disparate issues she sees. None of them seem to be EMR, and most of them aren't global warming.

I think the problem is when multiple probable causes are there, she focuses on EMR. If she sees Global Warming, she doesn't see the study mention a bunch of other things too. My parents used to call that "selective blindness" and "selective hearing." I think these days it goes by the technical term "cognitive bias."

(Granted, we are all victims of that sort of bias...the trick is "by how much." The internet, such as Facebook and Twitter, has exacerbated the problem.)

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I'll continue to follow this thread, but I fear it will not go very far in the end.
You're probably correct, but somehow I keep being drawn back. Lurking and ignoring key participants is probably the best bet.
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Old Wednesday 12th December 2018, 08:17   #1434
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Well "definitive" on environmental issues is always going to be tough, since (to me) it implies nearly 100% proof.

Trick is "at what point does it seem reasonable to take action."

Thanks, Kevin. My point is that no one is looking at EMR, and they bloody well ought to be in light of the number of species disappearing very fast, also given a correlation between the time when 2G and the first cell towers started appearing and the time when a lot of species started seriously declining. So, from my point of view, it is reasonable to take action NOW. In fact, we should have taken action before. I am arguing for the precautionary principle, remember? If you take precautions and they turn out to be unnecessary, at least you haven't made a fatal mistake. But if you fail to take precautions and it turns out they were necessary, then you have really, really screwed up. Why does none of you get this?

If you are all waiting for me to produce the article where Birdlife or the RSPB says that birds are disappearing and EMR is to blame, you will be waiting a very long time, maybe forever, maybe until there are virtually no birds left. If that's what you want, then don't bother to read this thread, because the NGOs are not going to say this until it is too late, or it's totally unavoidable. They're all sold on wireless technologies and they don't want to know different. I started this thread because I can see that there is something very wrong, an one way or another I have produced a lot of evidence for my contention that EMR is at least partly responsible for species decline. I know it isn't the only problem, I never said it was. The trouble is,you guys won't engage--you won't stretch your minds, read the studies, look around you. Nohatch comes along and says, "I am a scientist and I have found this and that and the other wrong with this and that and the other study," and you guys let him do your thinking for you. You don't bother to look at the studies he didn't criticize (that's most of them, by the way). So what can I tell you? Some of you have complained that I ignore, or fail to respond to, your comments. I have to say that most of you have failed to respond to most if not all of the evidence I've posted to support my case. So you can't say I haven't made a case. I have. You just haven't looked at it.

So you might consider looking at it BEFORE it's too late for the insects, the birds and everything else. Because this is the point at which it is reasonable to take precautionary action. In another year we're going to have 2G,3G, 4G and 5G systems all operating simultaneously. And very soon it may be too late.
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Old Thursday 13th December 2018, 23:13   #1435
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Well, that's us well and truly told then ...
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