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+ Some Bonus Birds of Fanny, Edward Wilson and Mr. & Mrs. Parzudaki!

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Old Monday 20th June 2016, 07:49   #26
Taphrospilus
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Calalp View Post

However; what about these claims (not necessarily of birds, but as well of other animals): here, here, here or here … ? Are they all (as indicated by Gouraud et al) simply erroneous?
What if you interpret collector just as from the collection of and not as collector in the field?
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Old Monday 20th June 2016, 11:19   #27
l_raty
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Originally Posted by Taphrospilus View Post
What if you interpret collector just as from the collection of and not as collector in the field?
In theory, this confusion should not happen in French sources, as the words are distinct: 'a collector' in the sense of someone who gathers, maintains and owns an assemblage of items is un collectionneur (with 'a collection' in this sense of the assemblage being une collection); 'a collector' in the sense of someone acting to obtain items in the field is un collecteur (with 'the collection' in the sense of the action of obtaining these items being la collecte). But of course this doesn't mean that mistakes can't happen.

Taking the example of M. emiliana again...
  • The [MNHN database entry] for the type specimen indicates unambiguously "Nom du collecteur: Parzudaki, Emile".
  • The label ([recto]/[verso]) gives no indication.
  • The former [socle] is marked "Acquis à M Parzudaki" = "Acquired from M. Parzudaki", which is quite different from "Collected by".
  • [Voisin et al 2005] noted:
    Quote:
    Dans son Conspectus generum avium Bonaparte indique que le spécimen qu'il a décrit provient de Java, qu'il est au Museum de Paris et qu'il a été collecté par Parzudaki.
    = "In his Conspectus generum avium Bonaparte indicates that the specimen which he described originates from Java, that it is at the Museum of Paris and that it was collected by Parzudaki."
    ...But in fact the Conspectus [here] only indicates:
    Quote:
    Mus. Paris. 1854. a Parzudakio. ex Java.
    [...]
    Emilio Parzudakio, Ornithophilo peregrinatori, dicata.
    ...where "a Parzudakio" just stands for "from Parzudaki" -- and might perfectly have been intended to mean "acquired from". The last sentence translates as "Dedicated to Émile Parzudaki, Bird-loving traveller", and gives no clear indication about a collector either (although it makes Émile a traveller once again).
I'd guess that, where no other evidence was available, relatively vague statements which originally meant "acquired from", "obtained from", "received from", etc., might quite easily have been repeatedly interpreted as "collected by".

Last edited by l_raty : Monday 20th June 2016 at 14:12.
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Old Monday 20th June 2016, 16:31   #28
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Friends, I have nothing more to add. I´ve found no reliable traces of any "World travelling" Parzudaki, nor of a ditto Fauqueux alt. in the combination Fauqueux-Parzudaki. This, of course, doesn´t mean either one of the two Parzudakis couldn´t have been travelling widely. But if they did, in a major way, frequently, there normally should, would, ought to be some kind of trace to find somewhere. But I´ve found no such cases, except in second-, or more likely, third- and fourth-hand sources, simply quoting each other.

I´m done! (... in this thread).

Björn

PS. Martin, I would suggest you to add your full name (below the user name "Taphrospilus", to the left), as of now you are totally anonymous for most viewers. This because I suspect you to be the "anonymous reviewer", mentioned in the Acknowledgements in the Gouraud et al Paper! The names, dates, years, places and ages of the various members of the Parzudaki Family mentioned in their article, are almost to the letter, identical to what you wrote here, the 1st of April 2015 (Post #12).

Just an idea? As of now, by being anonymous (that is if Gouraud et al ever did read your post), you missed your "15 minutes of Fame" …
--

Last edited by Calalp : Monday 20th June 2016 at 17:56. Reason: comma
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Old Monday 20th June 2016, 18:40   #29
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What still leaves me a bit perplex is that I don't really see actual evidence that Émile resided and worked in Paris before 1856 either.
Before this date, he was not in commercial directories (his first appearance is [here] - a directory for 1857, printed in 1856; he was 27 years old), and I don't get the feeling that he was cited as a source of specimen in the French zoological literature either (where the name of Parzudaki appears, it was typically in reference to a single 'M. Parzudaki', which was presumably always Charles -- the main exception being, of course, Bonaparte's explicit dedication, where the Prince called him a traveller).
Do we actually know where he was, and what he was doing before that?
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Old Monday 20th June 2016, 22:41   #30
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It´s (apparently!) hard to keep one's fingers away from this thread …

"Emile Parzudaki" (officially pre-1858: "François Charles Emil Fauqueux") could possibly have stayed (even if only at times, but maybe longer than we know) where he grew up with his biological Father (a furniture dealer, who died at 27) François Napoléon Fauqueux (1806-1833), in Oise, Picardie, France … or maybe he (as the only Son) went there, stayed there or returned there when he´d grown up, even long after his Father's death …?

Note that his mother was born and died at the same location. Also Charles Parzudaki, his step-father died there (they married in 1837) … it´s only 30 km North of Paris. Even in those days it should have beeen possible to work in Paris, and simultaneously (at least at times) be living in Picardie. I assume that would be possible for both the Parzudakis.

Just an idea? A simple guess … if of any use?
---

Last edited by Calalp : Tuesday 21st June 2016 at 00:13. Reason: typos
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Old Tuesday 21st June 2016, 07:50   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Calalp View Post
"Emile Parzudaki" (officially pre-1858: "François Charles Emil Fauqueux") could possibly have stayed (even if only at times, but maybe longer than we know) where he grew up with his biological Father (a furniture dealer, who died at 27) François Napoléon Fauqueux (1806-1833), in Oise, Picardie, France … or maybe he (as the only Son) went there, stayed there or returned there when he´d grown up, even long after his Father's death …?
And who is FAUQUEUX-PARZUDAKI (François - Charles - Étienne) , naturaliste, né à Nointel en 1829. D. du 14 juillet 1858 (assume somehow wrong information).

But I agree it is possible that he grew up in Oise (maybe at his grandma/grandpa). But it is as well possible that he traveled as a child similar to Auguste Sallé (with his mother and a for me a mystery M. Vasselet) or the Verreaux brothers (with the uncle Pierre Antoine Delalande) or Adolphe Boucard (not sure who accompanied a 12 year old boy in 1851). But all this is based on speculation and not on evidence.
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Old Tuesday 21st June 2016, 08:51   #32
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Originally Posted by Taphrospilus View Post
And who is FAUQUEUX-PARZUDAKI (François - Charles - Étienne) , naturaliste, né à Nointel en 1829. D. du 14 juillet 1858 (assume somehow wrong information).
This is (see [the title page of this section]) a list of persons who had their name changed between 1803 and 1865, compiled from the Bulletin des lois.
See also the text explaining the conventions used in the list [here]: when a name is printed partly in italics, partly not, this indicates that this person had the italicized component(s) added to a name that was originally limited to the non-italicized component(s). "D." stands for décret (decree).

Thus the list is telling us that a François-Charles-"Étienne", naturalist, born in Nointel in 1829, had his name changed from Fauqueux into Fauqueux-Parzudaki (see "FAUQUEUX-PARZUDAKI") by a decree of 14 Jul 1858.
However, in the Bulletin des lois [here], Décret impérial N° 5946 dated 14 Jul 1858, the naturalist, born in Nointel in 1829, who had his name changed from Fauqueux into Fauqueux-Parzudaki was François-Charles-Émile.

In other words, "Étienne" is definitely a simple misquote for Émile.

(Note that this decree only changed his family name, accepting "Émile" as the original spelling of his given name, without modifying it.)

Quote:
But I agree it is possible that he grew up in Oise (maybe at his grandma/grandpa). But it is as well possible that he traveled as a child similar to Auguste Sallé (with his mother and a for me a mystery M. Vasselet) or the Verreaux brothers (with the uncle Pierre Antoine Delalande) or Adolphe Boucard (not sure who accompanied a 12 year old boy in 1851). But all this is based on speculation and not on evidence.
This might be but (assuming his birth date is correct -- I've looked for his birth certificate in the [archives of Nointel], but failed to find it) he was not a child any more at all when he "appeared" in Paris. And he presumably had been in the "business" of birds for some times, as he had already managed to bring Bonaparte onto a new species a couple of years earlier.
I guess my problem is about what the null hypothesis should be... It's also possible that, from his 20th to his 27th birthday, he spent most of his time working in his step-father's back-shop without having any public life. But this is speculation as well.

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Old Tuesday 21st June 2016, 16:47   #33
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FWIW, Gould is another contemporary of Émile, who also believed that he had travelled:
Quote:
I have a specimen of this bird, presented to me by M. Emile Parzudaki, of Paris, with the name of Emile attached. The bird was killed by him during his visit to South America.
[Gould 1861]

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Old Wednesday 22nd June 2016, 13:01   #34
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Re: Gould. The odds that a 19th century writer in ornithology could be mistaken about E. Parzudaki collecting overseas is fairly high, The odds that both Gould and Bonaparte were wrong is much lower. Especially given the detail of Gould's statement: Parzudaki went to a specific place and killed a specific bird.
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Old Wednesday 29th June 2016, 07:54   #35
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Originally Posted by l_raty View Post
This might be but (assuming his birth date is correct -- I've looked for his birth certificate in the [archives of Nointel], but failed to find it) he was not a child any more at all when he "appeared" in Paris.
I agree and would have expected his entry here around p. 22/23 of 88 for Emile.

Tried to find the others too but failed as well. It might be worth to contact him as he was the creator of the tree. As I do not have an geneanet (and not intend to create one) account I am not able to do. Maybe all of them lived, died or have been born in a hamlet around Nointel similar to Vieillot. Or maybe it is worth to contact the authors of the publication.
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Old Thursday 30th June 2016, 08:06   #36
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Just another speculation in the article that Emile may have collected in the field is here p. 8. where it is written:

Quote:
Femelle, tueé près de Rosette en Egypte, par M. Parzudaki, 1860.
Could be interpreted as killed by Parzudaki or only killed at Rosette and aquired from Parzudaki. Isn't it?

P.S. According the article the birth, death, marriage entries are to find in this archive here

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Old Thursday 30th June 2016, 11:08   #37
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Could be interpreted as killed by Parzudaki or only killed at Rosette and aquired from Parzudaki. Isn't it?
I would be tempted to say no -- the sentence as it is written, to me, means clearly that Parzudaki killed the bird. (Beware that 'par' and 'de' have quite distinct meanings in French, even though both may be translated as 'von' in German. I cannot think of a situation where 'par' would translate into 'from' in English.) But things are muddied by the fact that this article actually alludes to three Parzudaki birds:
  • p.6, Aquila naevioides: "18. Femelle, tuée au mont Liban, acquise en 1860 de Mr. Parzudaki" = 18. Female, killed at mount Liban, acquired in 1860 from Mr. Parzudaki.
  • p.8, Aquila pennata: "3. Femelle, tuée près de Rosette en Egypte, par Mr. Parzudaki, 1860" = 3. Female, killed near Rosette in Egypt, by Mr. Parzudaki, 1860.
  • p.9, Aquila bonelli: "5. Femelle, livrée parfaite, tuée près de Rosette en Egypte, acquise de Mr. Parzudaki, 1860." = 5. Female, perfect dress, killed near Rosette in Egypt, acquired from Mr. Parzudaki, 1860.
The date is the same for all three birds, and I suspect that all three statements may have been intended to say the same thing -- which might then well be what the first one actually says: killed at X; acquired from Parzudaki in 1860.

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P.S. According the article the birth, death, marriage entries are to find in this archive here
It is there indeed -- but you have to register to access it, and accept a clause that expressly forbids reposting the images. Using the information, however, is freely allowed. The act reads:
Quote:
Naissance d'un garçon
L'an mil huit cent vingt neuf le jeudi vingt huitième jour de mai à deux heures de l'après-midi; Pardevant nous Côme Vincent Auguste Lejeune adjoint au maire de Nointel, canton de Liancourt, arrondissement de Clermont, département de l'Oise; auquel le dit maire a délégué par arrêté du onze mai mil huit cent vingt huit les fonctions d'officier de l'état civil de la dite commune. Est comparu le sieur Pierre Nicolas Moreuil marchand cocquetier âgé de cinquante-deux ans, demeurant en cette commune; Lequel nous a présenté un enfant du sexe masculin né aujourd'huy à six heures du matin du légitime mariage de François Napoléon Fauqueux âgé de vingt-trois ans six mois, marchand de meubles quay Saint Michel numéro neuf à Paris, et de Clarisse Moreuil âgée de vingt-trois ans son épouse, et auquel il a déclaré vouloir donner les prénoms de François Charles Emil. Les dites déclaration et présentation faites en présence de Maximilien Antoine Commelin instituteur âgé de cinquante huit ans et de Joseph Portemer cultivateur âgé de cinquante sept ans, tous deux demeurant en cette commune, et ont les témoins et le déclarant ci-dessus dénommé signé avec nous le présent acte de naissance après que lecture leur en a été faite.
Commelin
Joseph Portemer
Lejeune
Fauqueux père de [l'enfant [?]]
(The last word is obscured by the signature of the officer. Note that Pierre Nicolas Moreuil, Clarisse's father and Émile's grandfather, appears to have signed the act "Fauqueux father of the child": a bit strange, but this is how things are.)

In the margin is added:
Quote:
Suivant jugement sur requête rendu par le tribunal civil de première instance séant à Clermont, Oise, le quatre novembre mil huit cent cinquante neuf, enregistré, l'acte de naissance ci-contre a été rectifié en ce sens que l'enfant y dénommé pourra s'appeler à l'avenir François Charles Emile Fauqueux-Parzudaki et que le prénom de Emile sera écrit avec un e final.
Pour mention,
Le Maire,
Moreuil

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Old Friday 13th January 2017, 12:34   #38
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Parzudakia

Have to come back on Parzudaki.

As per today in HBW alive key:


Quote:
Parzudakia

(syn. Heliangelus Ϯ Tourmaline Sunangel H. exortis) Specific name Ornismya parzudakii Longuemare, 1840 (= syn. Heliangelus exortis).
in Christophe Gouraud al.


Quote:
Parzudakia Reichenbach, 1854. Whether this genus was named after Charles or Emile, or both, is hard to tell, as Reichenbach did not give any detail. Parzudakia Reichenbach, 1854, is a junior synonym of Heliangelus Gould, 1848.
I am personally convinced it is for Charles. Here OD.

Reichenbach used the new genus for:

Quote:
Parzudakia dispar (Orn. Parzudakii Less. 1840) - St. Fé de Bogota
Parzudakia viola (Heliotrypha Gould 1853) - Peru
If we attribute Orn. Parzudakii Less. 1840 to Charles for good reasons described in Christophe Gouraud et al. I think Parzudakia must be attributed to him as well. Second I think the author is Lesson, RP and not Longuemare here as title Oiseaux-Mouches rares ou nouveaux, communiqués par MM. Longuemare et Parzudaki, faisant partie du t. IV. inédit de l’histoire naturelle des Oiseaux-mouches de Lesson.

In the OD next page even Lesson is shown as author. But there might be different opinions about authorship.
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Old Friday 13th January 2017, 13:47   #39
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Originally Posted by Taphrospilus View Post
In the OD next page even Lesson is shown as author. But there might be different opinions about authorship.
In addition, the OS of the species-group name was parzudaki, not 'parzudakii'.

I understand the title of the work as saying that the text is part of the unpublished fourth volume of a work by Lesson, and describes specimens communicated by (i.e., received from) Longuemare and Parzudaki.
Additionally, the descriptive text of this particular species starts with a sentence that unambiguously identifies the author as the same person who had earlier already proposed the same name for another bird: this is a clear reference to Ornismya Parzudakhi Lesson 1839 [OD], which was unquestionably authored by Lesson.
Last, this particular bird is said to have been received from Parzudaki, thus not from Longuemare, and it is in fact unclear that Longuemare was involved in any way in its discovery and description.

It is obvious that Lesson is the author.

OTOH, I have no real problem with the interpretation of Parzudakia as having been formed from the species-group name name parzudaki (misspelled 'parzudakii' by Reichenbach; itself intended as a homage to Charles by Lesson; but whether Reichenbach intended his choice of name as an additional homage to the dedicatee, or simply formed the name 'mechanistically' by changing the ending of the species-group name, is in any case hard to tell).
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Old Friday 13th January 2017, 14:04   #40
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or simply formed the name 'mechanistically' by changing the ending of the species-group name, is in any case hard to tell).
OK. Assume Reichenbach didn't know any of both Parzudakis, therefore he wouldn't honor them and most probably formed the name 'mechanistically'. How would you explain the name etymologically? There are several examples like this e.g. Lafresnaya Bonaparte, 1850.
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Old Friday 13th January 2017, 15:40   #41
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How would you explain the name etymologically?
parzudaki (either the man or the species) + suffix -ia (which in proper Latin forms feminine nouns, mainly from adjectives but also sometimes from nouns [country or territory names: Italus, Italian + -ia => Italia, Italy; qualities: audax, bold + -ia => audacia, boldness; pathological conditions: demens, insane + -ia => dementia, insanity; etc.]; and in scientific Latin is acknowledged to form generic names)...?

In Lafresnaya, the i was dropped, probably because it would have been mute anyway.
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