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ZEISS DTI thermal imaging cameras. For more discoveries at night, and during the day.

Zen 7x36 out in the field. (1 Viewer)

You're correct; comment on weight of bin v. what you see for the weight; love the ZR (see) and Monarch (weight); totally different bin construction; prefer the ZR, but Monarch is light; they aren't in the same class for viewing, too; that's the obvious. Waiting for the ZR spotting scope saw here.
 
I saw the same thing. I used mine for hunting and extended glassing at a distance and the field curvature in the outer margins drove me batty. I felt like there was a doughnut of blur everywhere I looked. If you were only using them for birding and keeping your object of interest somewhere near the center of the FOV, that characteristic of these bins would bother you much less.

Just revisiting a post of the most pumped up binocular that has been on
the Birdforum.

It has been quiet for some time, I am wondering just what all the emotion
was really about. It seems it found the balloon has burst. ;)
I speak from experience, and found the same.

Jerry
 
Just revisiting a post of the most pumped up binocular that has been on
the Birdforum.

It has been quiet for some time, I am wondering just what all the emotion
was really about. It seems it found the balloon has burst. ;)
I speak from experience, and found the same.

Jerry

Hello Jerry,

There are a lot of satisfied users of the Zen 7x36, some enthusiastic users of the upgraded version. After the hype, it came down to a binocular which will suit many, at an attractive price, and in a niche configuration. If I had the money, there are finer binoculars, like the Zeiss 7x42 FL, which would be more impressive but the Zen was never in that class of refinement.

I thought that the Zen was a very good binocular, at that price point, for my kind of use. At least one other BF member agreed with that assessment, even when others were overly exuberant.

Happy bird watching,
Arthur Pinewood
 
Just revisiting a post of the most pumped up binocular that has been on
the Birdforum.

It has been quiet for some time, I am wondering just what all the emotion
was really about. It seems it found the balloon has burst. ;)
I speak from experience, and found the same.

Jerry


"all the emotion" was about "value". for me, the 7x36 ED2 is the best bang for the buck out there (some good buys from vortex too). very good optics for this price point. my sample has very good edges for such a wide field bin - could be sample variation or focus accommodation variation with others' experiences.

no, they aren't bomb-proof like alphas but you get 90% of the image quality for a fraction of the cost. comparing the zens with your 2001 EL confirmed that. in fact, the zens had much less chromatic aberration, much less color bias, more color saturation, and better depth perception. even the focuser was a bit smoother.

in a bad economy with 5 million people out of work, mid-price point good quality bins such as zen ray and vortex (8x42 fury in particular) and others (pentax 8x36 NV is another good buy for $200) enable birders on a budget to get the "better view desired" without inflated Euro pricing.

even dealers realize this. below an excerpt from "Photo Industry News":

"The performance and features offered in today’s binoculars have come a long way over the last decade. As one industry veteran opined, many current binoculars in the $300-$600 class provide essentially the same level of clarity, brightness and build quality delivered by models that sold for four times as much a decade ago. This is made possible by advances in coating technology, optical design, electronics and the precision manufacture of barrels and mechanical components in magnesium, aluminum and polycarbonate."

full article:

http://www.demystifyingdigital.com/Photo-Industry-News/Binoculars-Product-Reviews/index.aspx

the "balloon" hasn't burst for me, i'm about to upgrade to the 7x36 ed2.1. zen ray customer service is also up there with the big boyz.

what mystifies me is why some alpha bin owners are intent on knocking down zens???

b.
 
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Hello Jerry,

In additon to Brock's remarks, I would like to add comments made by Holger Merlitz:
The new binocular does now exhibit a very well balanced performance pattern and can be regarded to play inside the upper middle class league, superior to the Vortex Razor and almost on the level of Docter/Meopta. This is a great achievement for its price, and I am curious how this binoculars line will develop further in the coming years- http://www.holgermerlitz.de/zen7x36.html

Happy bird watching,
Arthur :egghead:
 
Well, I'm still using the 7x36 as my main glass. That and its big brother the 10x43 do not leave me wanting any more.

Brock gets it right, it is about VALUE. No more or less. The value for the money is what had to be really hammered (read hyped if you must) to get the point across. The Value and the Value alone is what drew me to them.

I do have the 9x36, but am a ways away from any posts.

Zen Ray discussions are alive and well most places.
 
Well, I'm still using the 7x36 as my main glass. That and its big brother the 10x43 do not leave me wanting any more.

Brock gets it right, it is about VALUE. No more or less. The value for the money is what had to be really hammered (read hyped if you must) to get the point across. The Value and the Value alone is what drew me to them.

I do have the 9x36, but am a ways away from any posts.

Zen Ray discussions are alive and well most places.

Steve,

I look forward to reading your comments on the 9x36 ED2. Being that you also have the 10x42 model, I'd be very interested in hearing how the two models compare.

I find myself "looking long" more often as I've been spending more time at our municipal and state parks. I hope to take a trip to our national forest in the spring, but I don't like mounting bins.

I figure if I have to mount a 1Ox bin, I might as well mount a 15x or a spotting scope.

So 9x might just be the best compromise for gaining extra magnification hand held without going back to the smaller exit pupil 10x30 IS or buying the much more expensive and heavier 10x42 IS L.

I can hold my old '80s era 9x63 roofs with A/K prisms fairly steady, but the long barrels and hefty weight helps (they look a lot like 9x63 Optolyths).

My concern with the 9x36 is that it might be too light (23 oz.) to dampen the bad vibes from my shaky hands. OTOSH, the midsized ED2's ergonomics are excellent, so that might compensate for the light weight, which is really desirable when using bins for hours.

However, I have a feeling that I won't really know how good a "fit" they will be for me until I actually get a pair of 9x36s in my hands and up to my eyes.

Brock
 
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There are several things to consider about this review. PLEASE note the plate glass window they are looking through in the photos. Other than that this seems to be a pretty well done review.

Note also this is biased for magnification as there is no mention of correction for the 7x magnification. The USAF chart gives resolution advantage to higher magnification, particularly at the closer ranges that the chart is useful. Close resolution may not be the same as distance resolution. The correlation is close, but I don't think absolute.

Another thing is to note that this is a mid size comparison and the ZEN ED2 and Hawke x36 models are not really compact models. Neither are they really full sized either, so it is hard to place them in a fit and feel category with smaller binoculars. So adjust the the magnification difference (resolution) and eliminate the fit and feel score, biased toward smaller glass and the score of both the Hawke and ZEN RAY glass goes up quite a bit. Even at 7x, the ZEN ED 2 resolution score beats half of the binoculars ranked above it. Given the extra 1x of magnification the same design Hawke 8x36 beats all but four of the glass ranked above it.

I don't want to seem pick on this because it is a well thought out review (except for the plate glass thing). If they are going to do this then post the reviews for everything. It also points out that in a rather inclusive review with a large number of binoculars it is really hard to evaluate a lot of glass.
 
There are several things to consider about this review. PLEASE note the plate glass window they are looking through in the photos. Other than that this seems to be a pretty well done review.

Note also this is biased for magnification as there is no mention of correction for the 7x magnification. The USAF chart gives resolution advantage to higher magnification, particularly at the closer ranges that the chart is useful. Close resolution may not be the same as distance resolution. The correlation is close, but I don't think absolute.

Another thing is to note that this is a mid size comparison and the ZEN ED2 and Hawke x36 models are not really compact models. Neither are they really full sized either, so it is hard to place them in a fit and feel category with smaller binoculars. So adjust the the magnification difference (resolution) and eliminate the fit and feel score, biased toward smaller glass and the score of both the Hawke and ZEN RAY glass goes up quite a bit. Even at 7x, the ZEN ED 2 resolution score beats half of the binoculars ranked above it. Given the extra 1x of magnification the same design Hawke 8x36 beats all but four of the glass ranked above it.

I don't want to seem pick on this because it is a well thought out review (except for the plate glass thing). If they are going to do this then post the reviews for everything. It also points out that in a rather inclusive review with a large number of binoculars it is really hard to evaluate a lot of glass.

Given that the 7x36 ED2 was stacked up against more expensive 8x models, four of which cost close to the $2k mark, the fact that the ED2's overall score was in the 4+ category with the "big boyz" speaks very well of this bin.

Stephen Ingraham had a method by which he compensated for lower or higher power bins by moving the target so many feet closer or farther, and then based his N.E.E.D.S. score for resolution on that correction for magnification. If you don't do that, you are comparing apples and oranges.

The other problem with these total score number type comparisons is that one or two subjective factors can throw off the final score as we saw on another thread with the reviewers at allbinos.com giving the lowest distortion bins the most points when, in practice, some distortion is better than none or too little in bins for daytime use to prevent or minimize the "rolling ball" effect.

In the case of the birdwatching.com reviews only three parameters are given values:

1. Focus
knob
score

2. Diopter score

3. Fit & feel
score

4. Resolution score

Out of those four categories only "Resolution" has an objective measurement, the others are all based on the preferences of the reviewers.

For example, if I were ranking diopters (I assume they mean "diopter adjustment," not how many diopters the bins can compensate for since they didn't list that data), I would rank top models such as the EL and EDG lower because I don't like pop-out on-the-focus-wheel diopter control, I find it cumbersome. The exception would be the pre-HD SLCs, which have on-the-focus-wheel diopter adjustment, but with a push-in rather than pop-out mechanism that is the easiest diopter adjustment I've ever used. I'm sorry to see Swaro drop this convenient design on its new HD-SLC.

So unless I explained my criteria, the score for "Diopter" would be meaningless to anyone reading the review. In the legend below the birdwatching.com rankings, they break down diopters as either having a lock or not having a lock and having a numbered? diopter scale or not, so I would have to assume those are the criteria they used to rank the diopters.

How about if the diopter wheel was hard to turn, that would knock points off in my rankings. How about if it was hard to locate, like the smooth brass ring on the EDG? How about if it had spiky tines that dig into your fingers like the diopter wheel on the Leupold porro Cascades? Obviously, there are other criteria of importance for diopter adjustment including how many diopters you can adjust for with the bins.

It would be very useful if reviews adopted some international standards for evaluating various bin criteria, but realistically I don't see that happening. Every reviewer has his/her own methods.

As imperfect as number rankings are, I don't have a problem with them as long the reader knows exactly which characteristics for each category are being evaluated. And given the subjective nature of some categories being ranked, there should always be a disclaimer at the end of the review such as Holger's and Allbinos'.

Holger's disclaimer:

"The 'final score' is the sum of the individual scores and is intended to serve as an orientation only. Generally, it would be an over-simplification of the matter to just look which binocular has got the highest score, because it would obscure the individual features of the devices which differ quite a lot among each other."

Allbino's disclaimer (at the end of the Zeiss 8x56 FL review):

"This situation only confirms what we’ve written many times – points and the test result per se are not enough. They might provide some tips but they are not an oracle. It might happen that a model with a bit worse score will prove to be better in some situations. Apart from that, so far nobody has constructed such a point scale and such test criteria which would please everyone."

Amen.

Brock
 
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Bearclawthe donut said - "Charles examined my returned pair and emailed me that they had center resolution of 4.4arcsec. a bit below ZR's standards and that he had hand picked out a replacement pair that had 4.01arcsec. of center resolution. He also suggested that it was a bit tricky comparing the 7x36 ED2's to a pair of 8x42's as a perfectly executed pair of 8x42's was capable of resolution of 3.7arcsec. I pointed out to him that the entire reason that I purchased the Zen-Ray 7x36 ED2 was for their reputed outstanding resolution".

I tried out a pair of 7x36 EDII myself this summer and returned them as well - several issues, edge distortion was horrible. Charles reviewed them and I don't recall exactly what he said but there was something that "wasn't up to there specifications".

I know alot of people rave about the Zens but I wonder if there's a quality issue where specifications can't be maintained so there's bad ones constantly getting out or is it these people are so used to Tasco's from K-Mart that they view the Zens as being a step up. I wonder how many alpha users see the Zens as great optics?
 
Bearclawthe donut said - "Charles examined my returned pair and emailed me that they had center resolution of 4.4arcsec. a bit below ZR's standards and that he had hand picked out a replacement pair that had 4.01arcsec. of center resolution. He also suggested that it was a bit tricky comparing the 7x36 ED2's to a pair of 8x42's as a perfectly executed pair of 8x42's was capable of resolution of 3.7arcsec. I pointed out to him that the entire reason that I purchased the Zen-Ray 7x36 ED2 was for their reputed outstanding resolution".

I tried out a pair of 7x36 EDII myself this summer and returned them as well - several issues, edge distortion was horrible. Charles reviewed them and I don't recall exactly what he said but there was something that "wasn't up to there specifications".

hello tpcollins, as I have explained to bearclawthedonut, it will not be realistic to compare 7x to 8x and 36mm to 42mm for linear resolution. There have been several reviews on the 7x binoculars on this forum and several other sites.

this is one of them

http://www.opticsthoughts.com/index...binoculars&catid=5:binocular-reviews&Itemid=5

As for edge pincushion distortion, it's really a matter of personal preference. One can refer to the discussion of Swarovision distortion free feature.

Thanks

Charles
 
Thanks Charles but I'm not exactly sure what you're saying - so if a 7x has a 477' FoV but crappy edge distortion, it has the same "good view portion" as an 8x with 420' FoV with no edge distortion?

If a portion of the view isn't usuable, I would rather it was covered up and not annoying me.
 
Thanks Charles but I'm not exactly sure what you're saying - so if a 7x has a 477' FoV but crappy edge distortion, it has the same "good view portion" as an 8x with 420' FoV with no edge distortion?

If a portion of the view isn't usuable, I would rather it was covered up and not annoying me.

Guess you better save up for a Swarovision then. There is almost always some edge distortion of some nature. Personally I can't imagine a more unnatural thing to do with your eyes than squint at the edge of the fov. YMMV, obviously.
 
Guess you better save up for a Swarovision then. There is almost always some edge distortion of some nature. Personally I can't imagine a more unnatural thing to do with your eyes than squint at the edge of the fov. YMMV, obviously.

You got that right.....+1. There are sample variations in every make of glass on the planet.
 
Guess you better save up for a Swarovision then. There is almost always some edge distortion of some nature. Personally I can't imagine a more unnatural thing to do with your eyes than squint at the edge of the fov. YMMV, obviously.

Steve - I've had 3 different Swarovski binocs, and now a Zeiss Victory, a Leica compact, and a Leupold Gold Ring so I've already spent the money you're suggesting I save up. I'm not deliberately squinting at the edges but the Zen I had when I looked up the street in front of my house, I noticed a telephone pole about 25 yards out on the left side of my view that looked like rainbow standing on end. I don't recall how any of the Swaroski's were but with my Zeiss and Leica the same pole is straight. There's just a hair of a bow with the Leupy - I think. If people are happy with edge distortion in their optics, that's fine. Maybe I was unlucky and got the only bad pair Zen Ray ever made - some days you're the windshield, some days you're the bug!

Not sure what YMMV means but I assume you're disappointed that I wasn't overjoyed with the Zen.
 
Thanks Charles but I'm not exactly sure what you're saying - so if a 7x has a 477' FoV but crappy edge distortion, it has the same "good view portion" as an 8x with 420' FoV with no edge distortion?

If a portion of the view isn't usuable, I would rather it was covered up and not annoying me.

No, that's not what I am saying. Everyone responds to the degree of edge distortion differently. I think that's what SteveC means by YMMV. Many people are quite happy with SV's distortion free viewing. But it does not mean that peole who complain about rolling ball effects get bad samples. We deliberately introduce some pin-cushion at the edge of the FOV. Is it too much, not enough, or just right? That depends who is behind the binoculars.

I really appreciate your feedback from your experience. You can always PM me so we discuss this interesting topic further.

Thanks

Charles
 
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