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Does EMR harm living organisms?

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Old Saturday 29th June 2019, 07:28   #1726
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Wish you hadn’t brought that up. Ain’t we got enough to worry about. I can just visualise the frenzied searching by PH for “papers and research findings”
Haha. . ..
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Old Saturday 29th June 2019, 09:06   #1727
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@ all You lot don't seem to actually read a word I write, do you? Or you just latch on to one thing I say without taking other things I say into account as well. It's a pity, really. I started on this forum hoping to gather information that would help to make sense of the declines in bird species I am observing, but clearly for most of you the thought of being deprived of wireless technology is too terrifying to allow a rational conversation. So I've got to ask, do you actually care about the birds or nature at all? From where I'm sitting, I would have to say you don't.

This is a glimpse of the future (courtesy of the Italian Stop 5G Alliance): "In France, starting from 2018, it’s no more possible to have a traditional landline service, 9.4 million contracts were terminated and the final goal is to fully substitute landlines with mobile phone by 2023. Italy is concerned by this forced decrease of traditional services, too: within 2024, 6,000 telephone exchanges (out of 10,500) will be dismantled. Traditional landline phones will completely disappear, cable-based communications will become old-fashioned and the Electromagnetic Age based on wireless technology will be the only choice. We all know the declared objective of 5G: simultaneously connect up to 1 million devices per square kilometer on 98% of our national territory, in order to cover 99% of citizens."

What does this mean for nature? How much EMR will 1 million connected devices per square kilometer create, and how will this affect birds, insects and everything else? That is the question. Most of you appear content to sit by and let this happen, and frankly I do not understand your apparent lack of concern. This is supposed to be the conservation forum on a site dedicated to birds, isn't it? The only real dedication I see is to your wireless devices.

As for birds sitting or nesting on various towers, antennas and other infrastructure, do you suppose the birds are aware of the EMR these things emit? Why would they be, if you don't feel the EMR emitted by the device that you keep in your pocket or hold next to your head?

@ Ed Thanks for your explanation of how Kostoff works, which I didn't know. I'm going to attach two pieces by him to a separate post (I keep losing my posts when I go to "advanced" to attach them)--one is the one I was looking for earlier, and the other is a long monograph on the evaluation and treatment of Alzheimer's. If what Kostoff is doing is data-mining the medical literature, he seems to me to be very thorough, and the PDF "Monograph Final" is very interesting if long. Some highlights:

Page 11, par 2 under AD contributing factors: "These approaches on the assumptions that AD/dementia symptoms are driven mainly by external factors and can be prevented/eliminated by elimination of these external factors...

p. 18: 5 factors contributing to disease include 1) Lifestyle 2) Iatrogenic 3) Biotoxic Agents 4) Occupational Environmental Exposures 5) Psychosocial/Socioeconomic and 6) Genetics

p. 68: Low-risk AD treatments include enhanced leisure/educational activities/memory training/cognitive training... (so this is obviously in the AD literature)
also p. 121: improve performance deficits--cognition/memory/learning

And then if you look at the long table of contributory/causative factors for AD you will see on p.161, Sect. I-B1, Cognitive inactivity
p. 176, section V-A "Psychological" see the second box, beginning with "low mental activity"(which specifically includes reading)

And on page 175, Section IV-B1b and B1b1, he also includes non-ionizing radiation as a factor causing AD

So, if we take this piece as the result of extensive searches of the AD literature, I think the point I was making about mental activity is reflected in it. I still think it is extremely important to keep the brain well-exercised, as it were, and I still maintain that wireless devices and computers do not help with that, by and large. Do you remember the time when you could recall people's telephone numbers? When they are all stored on a mobile device, you don't need to remember them, and that is another small cognitive act you don't perform any more.
And all the small things your brain once did but no longer do add up.
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Old Saturday 29th June 2019, 09:15   #1728
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@ Ed Here are the PDFs

@ Chosun By the way, I don't think one necessarily has to learn another language to avoid AD. Other forms of mental activity are available, though I would not include learning how to operate yet another computer program as one of them.
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File Type: pdf MONOGRAPH_FINAL.pdf (2.69 MB, 2 views)
File Type: pdf FINAL_CHAPTER_VERSION.pdf (662.2 KB, 2 views)
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Old Saturday 29th June 2019, 09:20   #1729
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@ all For anyone interested, here is a list of 153 peer-reviewed studies reporting significant effects from EMR on wildlife, including birds:
https://www.emfresearch.com/emf-wildlife/
Some of the studies have been posted on this forum, others have not.
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Old Saturday 29th June 2019, 11:32   #1730
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@ Ed Here are the PDFs

@ Chosun By the way, I don't think one necessarily has to learn another language to avoid AD. Other forms of mental activity are available, though I would not include learning how to operate yet another computer program as one of them.
Diana,

Just a few thoughts. It is not that people on BF and this thread don't care. On the contrary, they are probably very well aware of the many causes of environmental degradation and species declines.

I find a lot of what you have presented in your explanation of recent posts to be unsubstantiated opinion with lots of confirmation bias - I'm very sure I'm not the only one. I remain open to proof though.

I think you've taken such a tangent with the Alzheimers and conclusions you are drawing that you have left the road and are ploughing through a field of daisies. You might be very interested in this 'brain trainer' thread right here on BF: https://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=30390 ....... equally challenging / fun through both wired and wireless connections.

In Australia there has been much hoo-har for over a decade over the NBN - the National Broadband Network. By the time the ~$100 Billion project is fully rolled out, it will probably be just about obsolete speed wise. Many Military, Government, and Educational institutions are likewise hardwired. It is in fact a major factor in locating the utterly wasteful and unproductive cryptocurrency mining farms. I'm sure this country isn't Robinson Crusoe with regard to a Broadband Network - that was instrumental in how the Internet expansion started.





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Old Wednesday 3rd July 2019, 20:54   #1731
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Chosun,

Read this ARTICLE and reconnect to the silver lining (well, maybe or maybe not).

How does one falsify this sort of thing, anyway?

Quote:
One study found that exercising the mind delayed declines in thinking skills. After people started having Alzheimer's symptoms, though, mental decline sped up in those who kept their minds engaged. It's possible that being mentally active bolstered the brain at first, so symptoms didn't show up until later.

The silver lining here? People who regularly challenge their minds may spend a shorter part of their lives in a state of decline, even if they do get Alzheimer's.
Ed
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Old Thursday 4th July 2019, 09:35   #1732
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@ Chosun I do substantiate what I say--but you have to be willing to read the supporting documents I provide. You say that "everyone on BF is well aware of the many causes of environmental degradation" but you/they are failing to include EMR as one of those causes, and a major one at that. And it's not just EMR that is the problem; it's the toxic waste caused by wireless devices, the number of trees and plants damaged by EMR and cut down to make way for the wireless infrastructure, the huge amount of electricity needed to power the wireless world that in itself causes huge amounts of pollution that in turn affects birds, insects, plants etc. Environmentally, wireless is a disaster--and the broadband network (I assume you mean optic fiber cables) is always going to be much faster and safer than anything wireless. If everyone so needs to be connected, wired is really the only environmentally safe way to go.
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Old Thursday 4th July 2019, 10:17   #1733
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@ all I highly recommend the attached "Legal Opinion on 5G in Denmark" which devotes a good deal of space to the effects of EMR (and potential effects of 5G) on birds and nature. This is what the Eklipse conference ought to have doe and did not.

I also suggest you look closely at the section (end page 4, and onto page 5)--Section 1.2.1 (The focus of this legal opinion) which makes some valid points about research which finds that EMR causes harm versus research that does not.
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Old Thursday 4th July 2019, 10:55   #1734
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Originally Posted by Purple Heron View Post
@ Chosun I do substantiate what I say--but you have to be willing to read the supporting documents I provide. You say that "everyone on BF is well aware of the many causes of environmental degradation" but you/they are failing to include EMR as one of those causes, and a major one at that. And it's not just EMR that is the problem; it's the toxic waste caused by wireless devices, the number of trees and plants damaged by EMR and cut down to make way for the wireless infrastructure, the huge amount of electricity needed to power the wireless world that in itself causes huge amounts of pollution that in turn affects birds, insects, plants etc. Environmentally, wireless is a disaster--and the broadband network (I assume you mean optic fiber cables) is always going to be much faster and safer than anything wireless. If everyone so needs to be connected, wired is really the only environmentally safe way to go.
Hi Diana, I do read nearly all (I may have missed some when distracted) of the 'papers' and documents you post - some of that precious time out of my life will never be coming back. I don't find the case proven that it's a "major one" (cause of environmental damage). I remain open to be convinced, but I know plenty of other causes that are proven.

None of the speculation around Alzheimers was proven.(yet to read Ed's link - will have to recharge first). It was mixed in with so many other things as to be irrelevant. Same for the trees etc - we might as well bring in Rock vs Classical music too.

The only proven effect is thermal - which is particularly more harmful against forming and thinner (youngsters) skulls. The number of times this 'Cancer' scare is conflated with other things in the literature and links you have presented is ridiculous and time wasting.

It's your hypothesis that the reduced wavelengths correspond to greater harm to dimensionally smaller lifeforms. I can't say that I have been convinced of that.

As for the DNA damage - I've yet to wade through the mathematics as I just don't have great chunks of time to devote to it. I trust in the Scientific Process to confirm if it is a problem or not. I am sure I will be told if it's something to look at.

I wish you would do the Primary bird observation and EMF measurements in your area. I'd love to see the environment you are talking about - can you post some pics please?

I'm also interested in what you make of the Peregrine Falcon photo recently posted.

Battery is just about to die. Until later.


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Old Thursday 4th July 2019, 13:48   #1735
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Chosun,

Read this ARTICLE and reconnect to the silver lining (well, maybe or maybe not).

How does one falsify this sort of thing, anyway?


Ed
Hi Ed,

I had a look at that article. A fine silver lining indeed ! (All) Anecdotally from what I have seen with older friends and relatives, the early phases of Alzheimer's onset can be quite bewildering and depressing - frustration and anger is often a feature (the fact that some of these folk are deaf as beetles doesn't help them follow conversations or get involved - this compounds the withdrawl).

I have only directly experienced late stage 'Alzheimer's' once with my pop. From what I observed there, the later stages are a little bit like death or stupidity - ie. it affects everyone around you, but you are either gone or blissfully unaware !

I still get a chuckle from the nurse's stories about my 90 year old pop going awol, to be found purposefully walking down the street in a small country town (where he had a lovely serviced apartment leading onto beautiful flower gardens beside the mostly dry river) - bag in hand, off to do a plumbing job in the city ..... 500 k's away ! Sounds like an absolute riot !

Unlike my uncle who seems to have no identifiable cause, my pop's 'trips' were bought on by oxygen deprivation due to smoking induced emphysema. I do have back of the mind concerns about my father, but he seems ok - he's mad on those find-a-word puzzles. It seems the same 'type' of thing over and over again, but he's getting lots of exercise and fresh air too so it all seems good. It's his brother who is off with the pixies, and my mum (who is the financial manager, and scheduling planner of the pair) who recently accidentally deleted every text message I had ever sent her !

I have to thank one of my school teachers who introduced us to those logic puzzles. The rest is history. Even now I like to challenge myself with the quickfire random team online scrabble games - they will definitely keep you sharp ! I'm going to try and learn the didgeridoo once I can get out to country and find a suitable tree to craft. I've also designed a new national flag (coz I can't stand the Union Jack and all it represents in the corner of ours) , and even though it's not my place, I've got the guts of a new national anthem too !

As far as neural synapses go I think the theory holds water. I know that the converse (undesirable involuntary formation) of neural 'superhighways' readily form (as in my case with an injury tapped into the nervous system). I have a clinical psychologist friend who has specialised in PTSD and other pain management, and have tried some of those techniques, but really other things were more successful.

One of those was an anti-anxiety medication .... none of the specialists could tell me how that was meant to work - only that clinical trials had proven it to be effective in a fair percentage of cases of injuries like mine. It was horrible stuff (for me personally - I've had a few employees who actually had anxiety and took it and thought it was pretty good). I hated it, and took myself off it early - but guess what? in terms of breaking that pain feedback loop and superhighway it actually worked ! Beats floating around on Fentanyl or worse I suppose.

As far as brain changes go - one of the things that has always fascinated me is the step changes of those who undergo brain injury trauma and/or anaesthesia complications. To see people wake up speaking completely different languages, being able to calculate numbers by colours, or play instruments they had never learnt in their life is quite fascinating.

I have a feeling that we haven't even scratched the surface of all there is to know, and that's before we even factor in the spiritual side of the equation ....

PS. one doesn't necessarily need direct evidence of silver linings to feel reassured - the golden threads have all of our backs


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Old Tuesday 9th July 2019, 08:16   #1736
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@ Chosun Did you read the legal opinion on 5G? The section on pp 4-5 is important because the author makes the point that if one study finds harm from EMR, it doesn't matter if 10 others do not (provided the study waas properly conducted and passed peer review). As Ed once said, "You only need one."

MANY studies prove that EMR (non-ionizing/non-thermal) causes harm, and these findings date as far back as te 1960's at least; that harm includes DNA damage, sterility, cancer, heart problems, nervous system disorders, hormone disruption, etc. as well as effects on migration of many species. In each category, a good many more than one study has not only passed peer review but also been cited in review articles by people well qualified to judge how well they were conducted.

Studies finding no harm from EMR by and large fall into two categories: 1) industry-funded and 2) those using simulated pulses (see the Panagopoulos study about real versus simulated EMR for an explanation of why). Industry-funded studies are worthless because of the conflict of interest. Most independent studies do find harm from EMR.

Furthermore, the distinction between ionizing and non-ionizing radiation is an artificial construct (see the NASA paper and Golumb concerning this) as both produce effects by the same mechanism: oxidative stress. Radiation is a continuum, and they have chosen to draw the line at thermal effects, when thermal effects are not what causes the damage. If you heat tissues of the body, you may get burns, but not cancer and DNA damage; those are a result of oxidative stress.

Ironically, if you accept the artificial divide between thermal and non-thermal, then you will have to concede that wireless devices cause a great deal of damage, as most of them, especially the phones, exceed the maximum SARS (Specific Absorption Rates)--this has been proved both by the Phonegate Scandal and by a recent study that shows that they all exceed the SARS when used as they are actually used, in pockets or touching the head (the small print warning tells you not to). So these devices are causing thermal effects. And the way the SARS are determined is a scandal, since they are based on the size and thickness of the skull of the average US Marine, which is far bigger and thicker than the skull of most people.

So, in view of the above, do you really think that blanketing the entire planet with radiation which is PROVEN to harm all living things isn't a major environmental hazard? And this when disappearances and declines of all sorts of species are a matter of public record, to such an extent that we are calling it "the sixth great extinction"? How can we ignore this enormous change to the environment that we are causing?

I daresay if the nature NGOS started blaming wireless for species declines, you would all have jumped on the bandwagon long ago, and I wouldn't be doing this thread. But they haven't. They have steadfastly refused to consider EMR as the environmental pollutant and habitat destroyer it actually is, and I think this is because they are 1) following the lead of governments, who make a great deal of money from wireless technologies and 2) being heavily funded by wireless and wireless-related industries (which creates a conflict of interest). Eventually they WILL change their tune, but it may be too late by then.

Regarding my hypothesis on shorter wavelengths affecting smaller creatures, it was only that, and I wondered if it might be the case based on the study that found 5G will disproportionately affect insects. However, having read Panagopoulos' most recent paper, I think now that it is the sheer number of cell towers and other sources of EMR primarily driving declines.

It is no use my giving you detailed bird data from Samos; I could, and in fact I have up to a point, but what we are discussing here is the general principle, which has been established, that EMR is harmful--and as I just said, declines of birds and other species is a matter of record. Similarly, there is no use rushing around to measure the EMR burden here and there; the number of sources of EMR might be more to the point, and we have a great many here. I can look around me and see 20 cell towers, not counting the ones in Turkey I can see with binoculars. How many can you see?

You say you are keeping an open mind. I hope you are, but if so, I cannot see why none of the materials I have provided in support of my central argument have made any impression on you--unless you haven't actually read them. You obviously do care about nature, and you are failing to see the biggest threat of all.

It is eleven months till all the satellites go live, and then I honestly believe it will be game over; we will have gone past the tipping point and will merely be waiting for the end.What a miserable end to a beautiful world it will be.
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Old Tuesday 9th July 2019, 19:53   #1737
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...And the way the SARS are determined is a scandal, since they are based on the size and thickness of the skull of the average US Marine, which is far bigger and thicker than the skull of most people.
LOL! Things are not always how they seem.

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Old Friday 12th July 2019, 08:19   #1738
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@ Ed That's interesting. But children?
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Old Saturday 13th July 2019, 21:50   #1739
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@ Ed That's interesting. But children?
Generally thought to be more vulnerable (to everything). I have no basis for disagreement in the case of EMR, but I also have not seen hard experimental data to validate or quantify it either. Have you?

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Old Sunday 14th July 2019, 21:06   #1740
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Does EMR harm living organisms?

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Originally Posted by Purple Heron View Post
Furthermore, the distinction between ionizing and non-ionizing radiation is an artificial construct (see the NASA paper and Golumb concerning this) as both produce effects by the same mechanism: oxidative stress. Radiation is a continuum, and they have chosen to draw the line at thermal effects, when thermal effects are not what causes the damage. If you heat tissues of the body, you may get burns, but not cancer and DNA damage; those are a result of oxidative stress.
Well, that’s interesting. So where does it leave Quantum Physics? You are denying its validity with two claims:

1) Artificial divide between ionizing and non ionizing

2) “radiation is a continuum”.

So, when after that time the satellites are powered on and nothing happens, what will you say?

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Old Yesterday, 03:39   #1741
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As the sun turns into a gas giant, our good earth will be engulfed by all sorts of radiation. So the theory goes, that will be the end of us.

Except for this thread
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Old Yesterday, 09:20   #1742
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@ Borjam Did you read the NASA paper? Some very well-educated people work there, I understand. As for quantum physics, what you are saying is that we have decided that we know how things work, therefore we don't have to rearrange our ideas to accommodate any new information, is that right? Even when we actually have quite a lot of very good information that shows us that what we believed to be true is not the case. But then again, Europeans have a long tradition of burning people at the stake for daring to suggest that the status quo may be wrong, so why am I surprised? Galileo was forced to recant, after all.

Fact: Both ionizing and non-ionizing radiation can unzip DNA strands and damage DNA.
Fact: Both ionizing and non-ionizing radiation cause oxidative stress, leading to cancers and other problems.
So are you saying that it is the tissue heating produced by ionizing radiation that causes the damage? If so, how do you explain the same results produced without the heating of tissue? By refusing to accept any of the science that shows otherwise?

@ Ed The best evidence would seem to me to lie in the fact that each succeeding generation (by which, in this case, I mean decade) of people since the invention of the mobile phone has both increased morbidity as well as increased mortality rates. I can't find a study that comes out and says so in so many words, but it would be logical to assume that exposure to EMR from conception is worse than exposure from age 10 onwards, which is worse than exposure from age 20 onwards, etc. The following article from the AMA calls for a study to look into the "alarming drop in life expectancy".
https://www.ama-assn.org/delivering-...l-study-action
This is where you would expect to see the results of continually irradiating the head and body of children who are developing and are more vulnerable, as you say, to most things.
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Old Yesterday, 09:27   #1743
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@ all, especially Chosun and Borjam

A new study finds that exposure to pulsed, short, shart bursts from 5G signals could cause harmful heating ! Non-ionizing radiation from wireless devices in use today do not heat. That is part of the major issue with exposure guidelines like Safety Code 6 (Canada), ICNIRP and SCENHIR -- they protect only from heating and do not protect from non-thermal biological effects. If 5G heats, it could exceed the current exposure standards !! It is possible that, in light of studies like this, the exposure guidelines will be increased to even miore dangerous levels.


The Microwave Factor: 5G Heating May Cause Permanent Tissue Damage

5G Heating May Cause Permanent Tissue Damage

From Cindy Lee Russell, M.D.

Physicians for Safe Technology

WWW.MDSafeTech.org


"New research by Neufeld and Kuster 2018 highlights the significant tissue heating generated by 5G technology with rapid short bursts of data transfer on a device, prompting them to call for reevaluation of thermal safety standards (let alone biological standards). The researchers state, “The results also show that the peak-to-average ratio of 1,000 tolerated by the International Council on Non-Ionizing Radiation Protection guidelines may lead to permanent tissue damage after even short exposures, highlighting the importance of revisiting existing exposure guidelines.”


https://www.emfacts.com/2018/12/comp...chnical-paper/


https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/30247338 abstract of the study


And the point of this is, even if you insist that thermal effects are the only proven effects, it seems that 5G crosses the line. So what then of all those satellites pumping 5G at the earth 24/7/365? Safe for us and all the earth's species?
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Old Yesterday, 12:52   #1744
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Again do you even read the things you post?

Quote:
The following article from the AMA calls for a study to look into the "alarming drop in life expectancy".
"The opioid and heroin epidemic appears to be a major contributor to the rise in premature deaths."
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Old Yesterday, 17:10   #1745
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Again do you even read the things you post?


"The opioid and heroin epidemic appears to be a major contributor to the rise in premature deaths."
Not to mention. . ..

“The trend [declining life expectancy] puts the U.S. at odds with many other industrialized nations whose life expectancy rates continue to rise. . .”.

The fact is she treats virtually anything indicative of a decline in public health—from mass shootings to earaches—as evidence for the malign effects of EMR no matter how tenuous the connection or large or small the scale. She’s a fanatic on the subject and nothing will ever ever change her mind. Is there anyone here who doubts this?

Why this ridiculous thread wasn’t moved to ruffled feathers long ago baffles me.
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Old Yesterday, 17:15   #1746
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Again do you even read the things you post?


"The opioid and heroin epidemic appears to be a major contributor to the rise in premature deaths."


Maybe EMR is a coadjuvant and those substances would be harmless without it?
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Old Yesterday, 19:00   #1747
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Originally Posted by Borjam View Post
Maybe EMR is a coadjuvant and those substances would be harmless without it?
Oh no! First “synergy“ which was brought to her attention a mile or so back in the thread and which she promptly weaponized, and now “coadjuvant”, an even more potent word in the wrong hands. There’ll be no stopping her now, I fear.
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Old Yesterday, 19:12   #1748
elkcub
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Borjam View Post
Well, that’s interesting. So where does it leave Quantum Physics? You are denying its validity with two claims:

1) Artificial divide between ionizing and non ionizing

2) “radiation is a continuum”.

So, when after that time the satellites are powered on and nothing happens, what will you say?
Borjam,

Except by silence you have never commented on any of the numerous laboratory findings presented on this thread which demonstrate scientifically that EMR does indeed harm living organisms.

Given that track record, is it conceivable you'd actually acknowledge that something untoward was happening even if it was? Nah.

Also, you've taken Diana's statements about radiation out of context since in all likelihood you didn't read the article(s) they came from. If you did you'd know what she was referring to.

Ed
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