treecreeper, France (1 Viewer)

ekopa · Feb 4, 2008

Hi everybody!

Is this a Eurasian or short-toed treecreeper? It looks like a short-toed to me
1. clear white spots on primary tips
2. a bit brownish flanks, longer bill and short hindclaw (or it is just my imagination

)

Now I know song is important, but I didn't know it while taking pictures! I must come back and listen to it again

Anyway, are the photos enough to id this nice bird?

Thanks
Alexei

PS photographed a couple of days ago, not far from Paris.

Jacana · Feb 4, 2008

this is a common treecreeper, notice the long hind claw, and the uneven gradution of steps on the wing bar

Cristian Mihai · Feb 4, 2008

agree with jacana - it's a familiaris.

StuartReeves · Feb 4, 2008

I lean towards Short-toed for this bird, for the reasons Alexei outlines, i.e. the brown on the flanks and the white primary tips. In addition the inner web of the longest tertial appears all dark and it looks as if the outer web of the alula is all pale. Both of these are more consistent with Short-toed. The hind claw does look longish but it is difficult to judge in isolation. I believe Short-toed is also more likely at Fontainebleau that Common too; over much of Europe Common tends to occur at higher altitude than Short-toed and Common is absent from much of France according to the distribution maps I've been able to find. Would have been better to hear it call though!

dbradnum · Feb 4, 2008

Hmmm.... not easy!

My first thought was Common, based on the right-angle in the wingbar which I thought was diagnostic, and the hindclaw supporting this. But then those primary tips put me off a bit... they're pretty clear-cut. Can Common show these?

birdboybowley · Feb 4, 2008

Looks like Common to me, the wings say it all

Andrew Whitehouse · Feb 4, 2008

For the reasons outlined by Stuart and Alexei, I think this is very probably a Short-toed Treecreeper. The bars on the primaries don't seem particularly sharply offset to me. If you look at the illustrations in the Collins, Common has two adjacent bars which hardly overlap at all (although I expect there's variation). There's plenty of overlap here. Short-toed would also be much more likely around Paris, as Stuart has already pointed out.

Paul Collins · Feb 4, 2008

I've often seen short-toed in Paris and generally in the north, so would also lean towards this. Not ruling out common, though

JANJ · Feb 4, 2008

I´m also in the Short-toed camp here, although it might perhaps not be so easy ID.

The pale markings on the wing - which is difficult to explain in a good way in words, reminds of STT in that the distal edge is pointed not square or rounded and if putting it in words used by Svensson, in STT there´s a moderate step between p6 & p7 and distance between those two less than twice the step between p7 & p8.
In Treecreeper the value is, longer step between p6 & p7 and more than twice as long as between p7 & p8.

Best seen in these images:

http://www.birding.se/foto/tradgardstradkrypare.htm

http://www.netfugl.dk/pictures.php?id=showpicture&picture_id=17934

Note the small pale spot on the outermost edge of the wing (P4) and note the difference in size of it compared to the larger spot on Treecreeper.

Also note the lack of pale margin on inner web of white-tipped primaries on STT and compare with this Treecreeper:

http://www.netfugl.dk/pictures.php?id=showpicture&picture_id=4002

JanJ

nickderry · Feb 4, 2008

I see short-toed patterning here, and near Paris, it'd be a safe assumption that the treecreepers are short-toed.

hannu · Feb 5, 2008

2cy bird, probably male... ;-)

Jane Turner · Feb 5, 2008

Andrew Whitehouse; said:
For the reasons outlined by Stuart and Alexei, I think this is very probably a Short-toed Treecreeper. The bars on the primaries don't seem particularly sharply offset to me. If you look at the illustrations in the Collins, Common has two adjacent bars which hardly overlap at all (although I expect there's variation). There's plenty of overlap here. Short-toed would also be much more likely around Paris, as Stuart has already pointed out.

Should always use a suite of characters on these.... but that wing bar is just what I'd expect for ST.

hannu · Feb 5, 2008

Thus I'm in the ST camp too..

dacoj3 · Feb 7, 2008

so, lets look at this one

I know what this is, I heard it's song (and watched it's beak move)

So let's hear your arguments!

(taken this morning in our Botanical Garden in Copenhagen)

David

Jacana · Feb 7, 2008

that i'd call a short toed, the hind claw is short, it definitely appears to be shorter than the claw from the first picture, and the wingbar has even graduations

Xenospiza · Feb 7, 2008

The French bird is Short-toed based on its various wing markings, although the pale shafts of the the tailfeathers are apparently better for Common.
The Danish looks fine for Short-toed — Common would also show a more prominent supercilium I guess.
I've looked at many hindclaws of Short-toed Woodcreepers in the Netherlands (where “Common” is a very local breeder and a rare winterer, so it would be a nice find...), and I can honestly say it's a rubbish fieldmark!
You will all be thrilled to bits that a hybrid pair has been recorded as well...

skbirder · Feb 7, 2008

Yes, agree the Danish bird looks like a Short-toed on the basis of the even wingbar, the primary spots, the rather dull mantle and the sullied flanks.

EDIT: Three well documented cases of interbreeding have been recorded in Sweden in the past three to four years. Young have fledged in all cases and at least one showed (hardly surprisingly) intermediate characters between Short-toed and Eurasian...

Hotspur · Feb 7, 2008

Is it any surprise that these species interbreed, the niche seperation in areas of overlap must be negligible. Only takes an area with a thin distribution of the females sp. and breeding would occur. Wonder if the hybrids are viable...

dacoj3 · Feb 7, 2008

Correct! On the basis of song this was a definite short toed - and the other characters:

- the pattern of spots on the primaries
- the short supercilium
- the brownish belly
- and of course the wing bar.
- I don't trust the hind toe

We have an increasing local population and there are several sites in and around Copenhagen where we have both species. This is the first I've seen on our campus (where we have some excellent old trees) and the most famous site in Sweden is the park of the Malmö Campus of the sister faculty - Swedish Agricultural University at Alnarp. Haven't succeeded in finding it myself there yet though.

David

(equipment Nikon D200 with 105 macro and 1.7 x teleconverer, 400 asa imaged clipped.)

treecreeper, France (1 Viewer)

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