I heard somewhere along the line that Kahles optics are produced in the same plant or produced by the same folks that produce the Swarovski optics. Any comments on this? I did some searching on this forum and found there might be some relationship, but I am still unclear as to what that relationship is.
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Kahles? (1 Viewer)
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14Goudvink
Well-known member
As I remember reading on this forum Kahles at some time was owned by Swarovski, but are on their own or under some other company now. I didn't look into it though.
A while back they were associated with Swarovski of North America. Information on the literature that came with the binoculars instructed that queries about repairs be made through SONA. Later GAMO, the Air Rifle company began representing them. Currently they are independent and continue making binoculars in Austria.
In comments at the end of a review of the Kahles 8 x 32 binocular in Allbinos, is a statement saying both companies (Swarovski and Kahles) have common roots and have been cooperating closely.
They are represented in the USA by Khayles, in Orofino, Idaho.
I will have a report on the Kahles 8 x 32 soon. They only make 3 binoculars: 8 and 10 x 42 and 8 x 32. Eagle Optics sells them.
Bob
In comments at the end of a review of the Kahles 8 x 32 binocular in Allbinos, is a statement saying both companies (Swarovski and Kahles) have common roots and have been cooperating closely.
They are represented in the USA by Khayles, in Orofino, Idaho.
I will have a report on the Kahles 8 x 32 soon. They only make 3 binoculars: 8 and 10 x 42 and 8 x 32. Eagle Optics sells them.
Bob
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idaho john
Well-known member
brocknroller
porromaniac
Bob,
Your encylopedic knowledge of Austrian optics is impressive. So two more questions: How comes Kahles goes by the name Khalyles in the U.S.? ("comes" is the way we says it in Bradford, Pa.). And how the heck did they end up in Idaho of all places? Maybe Idaho John knows.
Btw, Arek reviewed the 8x32 on allbinos. Amazingly, they had perfectly round exit pupils, you don't see that often on small roofs, at least on allbinos.
http://www.allbinos.com/181-binoculars_review-Kahles_8x32.html
The summary being that "All 8x32 class binoculars which in our tests fared better than the Kahles are either more expensive or heavier or more expensive and heavier at the same time."
But it ain't cheap, $921 at EO. Leightweight and priced competitively with the Swaro CL, and with .6* more FOV. I figured that "Made in Austria" tag was worth about $300 alone. IOW, you might find comparable performance in the $500-$600 range in Japanese optics (or at least, you used to) and get similar performance such as the Pentax 8x32 SP, and for a bit less than the CL or Kahles, you could upgrade to the Pentax 8x32 ED and "get the red out".
Chromatic aberration was one of the negatives in Arek's review and te Kahles being "only" sharp to 80% (of 7.6* FOV), and some "fit and finish" issues. Sounds pretty good. If only I had small hands, the world of closed bridge, lightweight, compact 8x32 roofs would be my oyster.
I look forward to your review and further historical facts about the Kahles Royal family.
<B>
Brock,
Hardly encyclopedic. Kahles is still largely mysterious. I spelled the US representatives name wrong. It is Khabyes, not Khalyes. It appears to be a small family business. See more info below:
http://www.birdforum.net/showpost.php?p=2442532&postcount=7
The binocular is lighter than it used to be with the new magnesium frame (I have the older version) but it is quite substantial in the hand. There are the same unchanged vertical ridges along the objective tubes that are reminiscent of the Leica Trinovid. Even the rainguard resembles the one that came with the Trinovid. It is also shorter than the Swarovski 8 x 30SLC and the Nikon 8 x 32LX L. Its exterior did not change. All changes made, other than the lighter frame, were to the optics. New coatings (visibly quite different on the objectives) and wider oculars and longer eye cups. Albinos indicates changes on the prism coatings too.
I'll have a longer report soon with some comparisons including a "reference standard." I want to spend a few hours with it at Hawk Mountain. Meanwhile, it's pretty darn good and easy to use. As for the cost? It's made in western Europe. What can I say?
Bob
Hardly encyclopedic. Kahles is still largely mysterious. I spelled the US representatives name wrong. It is Khabyes, not Khalyes. It appears to be a small family business. See more info below:
http://www.birdforum.net/showpost.php?p=2442532&postcount=7
The binocular is lighter than it used to be with the new magnesium frame (I have the older version) but it is quite substantial in the hand. There are the same unchanged vertical ridges along the objective tubes that are reminiscent of the Leica Trinovid. Even the rainguard resembles the one that came with the Trinovid. It is also shorter than the Swarovski 8 x 30SLC and the Nikon 8 x 32LX L. Its exterior did not change. All changes made, other than the lighter frame, were to the optics. New coatings (visibly quite different on the objectives) and wider oculars and longer eye cups. Albinos indicates changes on the prism coatings too.
I'll have a longer report soon with some comparisons including a "reference standard." I want to spend a few hours with it at Hawk Mountain. Meanwhile, it's pretty darn good and easy to use. As for the cost? It's made in western Europe. What can I say?
Bob
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Hmm, Hawk Mountain you say? Would be a good time with Broadwings peaking. I had quite a few in the parking lot of BOK yesterday afternoon as well as a variety of other birds. FOY Red Crossbill was my favorite though.
This weekend Bob?
I don't think so. I try to avoid weekends and go in the middle of the week.
Bob
jan van daalen
Well-known member
Kahles was bought by Swarovski in 1975 because of the fact that on that time Kahles made one of the finest rifle scopes. So in fact Swarovski bought the brain. At this moment all Kahles bino's are outsourced to Kamakura in Japan.
Hi Jan,
Welcome to Bird Forum!
I have two 8 x 32 Kahles binoculars. The boxes both of them came in clearly state (in English) Made in Austria along with the codes and their Serial Numbers. I don't know if it is legal to make a statement like this about them in Europe if they were outsourced to Japan for manufacture. Perhaps you can comment on that?
When I purchased my older one a few years ago I called Swarovski of North America to register it per instructions on the registration card. I was told at that time that Swarovski was no longer associated with them and to contact GAMO, America instead. I have been informed by the Kahles representative in the USA that Kahles is now independent. See above threads.
My older model was made before 2007 according to the Kahles rep. My new one is a 2012 model according to the information on the box it came in. There is not a dimes worth of difference between the 2 binoculars externally except the eyecups are 3mm longer and the diameter of the oculars is 2mm wider on the new model. Otherwise they are identical, right down to the lengthwise ridges on their bodies. The new model also has a lighter magnesium body.
Their Serial Numbers are on the bottom of the central hinge exactly where they are on my 2 Swarovski SLC binoculars and they appear to have a similar coding system.
The coatings on the objectives are visibly very different and the FOV is wider in the new model.
It would appear that if Kamakura in Japan is now making them that they also have the original tooling for them that Kahles used to make them.
Bob
PS: Allbinos reviewed these binoculars on 2011-05-02. I believe that the binoculars reviewed there are an earlier version of my new one because the FOV of mine is clearly wider than the FOV stated in the review. www.allbinos.com
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jan van daalen
Well-known member
Hallo Bob and ofcourse all others
Let me explain my background. Ik own House of Outdoor & Optics since 1993 and we have about 600 different models of almost every serious brand. I visit the several plants of the alfa's and beta's each year and this info of Kahles comes directly from the Kahles representative for the BeNeLux (Belgium Netherlands Luxemburg).
I have just now checked our Kahles supplie and on the binoculars is only mentioned Austria. And NOT: made in Austria. So they do not lie!!!! About 8 years ago I visited the plant and saw no production facilities of bino's.
Kahles is owned by Swarovski but is, within certain limits, an independent company.
In Europe Kahles representatives are just business companys who deliver to the retailers like us and they have different brands in their portefolio. There is no connection for them what so ever to Swarovski. In fact, almost nobody knows all this.
So in the Kahles samples I have there is no mentioning of where it is made, only Kahles Austria.
Indeed, the new models are upgraded but they can't stand in the shadow of Big Daddy.
Jan.
Let me explain my background. Ik own House of Outdoor & Optics since 1993 and we have about 600 different models of almost every serious brand. I visit the several plants of the alfa's and beta's each year and this info of Kahles comes directly from the Kahles representative for the BeNeLux (Belgium Netherlands Luxemburg).
I have just now checked our Kahles supplie and on the binoculars is only mentioned Austria. And NOT: made in Austria. So they do not lie!!!! About 8 years ago I visited the plant and saw no production facilities of bino's.
Kahles is owned by Swarovski but is, within certain limits, an independent company.
In Europe Kahles representatives are just business companys who deliver to the retailers like us and they have different brands in their portefolio. There is no connection for them what so ever to Swarovski. In fact, almost nobody knows all this.
So in the Kahles samples I have there is no mentioning of where it is made, only Kahles Austria.
Indeed, the new models are upgraded but they can't stand in the shadow of Big Daddy.
Jan.
Jan,
I've seen occasional references to Kamakura Koki and Light Optical Works being the leading OEM suppliers of binoculars made in Japan. It's been said that Fujinon use Kamakura, but as to which makes what for the other brands, I have no idea. I've picked up higher priced Japanese made pairs from one company and thought the view looked remarkably similar to another brand, and it's tempting to think they are from the same production line. Have you any idea who makes what?
David
I've seen occasional references to Kamakura Koki and Light Optical Works being the leading OEM suppliers of binoculars made in Japan. It's been said that Fujinon use Kamakura, but as to which makes what for the other brands, I have no idea. I've picked up higher priced Japanese made pairs from one company and thought the view looked remarkably similar to another brand, and it's tempting to think they are from the same production line. Have you any idea who makes what?
David
Jan,
Thank you for helping to clear this up.
There is nothing on either of my Kahles binoculars to indicate where they were manufactured.
The CUSTOMER COPY of the warranty for my early model (Limited Lifetime warranty) was printed in the USA in 2002 and instructs that all repairs be sent to Kahles at 2 Slater Road, Cranston, Rhode Island 02920. This is the address of Swarovski of North America.
The copy of the warranty (11 year warranty) for my newer model is on the back of the Instruction Manual, which is not dated but it has Kahles's address and telephone number in Austria printed on it. For service and/or repairs the warranty says to send it back to the authorized dealer along with the warranty document or one can send it directly, delivery free, to Kahles in Austria for warranty repairs.
Curiously there is no technical data for the 8 x 32 in it. It only gives technical data for the 8 x 42 and 10 x 42 binoculars. I confirmed this with the dealer I purchased it from.
I have no experience with Swarovski's new "Big Daddy" Swarovisons but I don't think any binocular should be expected to compete with another binocular that costs more than twice as much as it does.
I can tell you that my Swarovski SLC 7 x 42 B is better than my new Kahles 8 x 32 and it should be. And the Kahles is not as good as my Nikon 8 x 32 SE porro prism is either.
But the Kahles is at least as good and better in some respects than both my Swarovski (2010) SLC 8 x 30 WB and my Nikon 8 x 32 LXL/HGL are. And that is very good indeed!
In a rating of 8 x 32 binoculars, Allbinos rates the Kahles 8 x 32 just below the Swarovski 8 x 32 EL. In their review of the Kahles they remark about the similarity of their high transmission graphs which both run from 90 to 92 in the visible spectrum.
http://www.allbinos.com/allbinos_ranking-binoculars_ranking-8x32.html
Thanks again for your response.
Bob
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jan van daalen
Well-known member
Kahles
David,
To understand how things work, first a short history. Perhaps you allready know it, but just in case!
The man who paved the road for Japanese optics to the western world is David P. Bushnell, a quartermaster with the U.S. occupying forces in Japan after World War II who was assigned to evaluate the products manufactured by the Japanese. He related that the optics were of an outstanding quality and very inexpensive, because Japanese optics derive mainly from a flexible manufactoring system of specialized firms, agglomarated as a cluster in the Northern area of Tokyo. This production system as a network was formed by small assembly and component manufacturers.
Bushnell started up his owm company and brought Japanese optics to the U.S. In the first few years 100% of all the produced Japanese binoculars were exported to the States and they took over 90% of the U.S. import market for more than a decade from mid 1950s.
In the present only some big giants are left over. Companies like Kamakura etc.
Kamakura R&D and produce optics for their own brand and for labels, like Bushnell. They also built optics for labels who do their own R&D, like Bushnell.
Bushnell, as a brand, does not make their own optics. They outsource that.
Fujinon does the same, but they also produce their own optics to be sure of a strict quality standard. You have to work for Fujinon to know which item is outsourced and which is not. Most brands outsource production, a few assemble by themselves (to make it legally "made in...." but the components are Japanese or Chinese made, only the labour....
Jan
David,
To understand how things work, first a short history. Perhaps you allready know it, but just in case!
The man who paved the road for Japanese optics to the western world is David P. Bushnell, a quartermaster with the U.S. occupying forces in Japan after World War II who was assigned to evaluate the products manufactured by the Japanese. He related that the optics were of an outstanding quality and very inexpensive, because Japanese optics derive mainly from a flexible manufactoring system of specialized firms, agglomarated as a cluster in the Northern area of Tokyo. This production system as a network was formed by small assembly and component manufacturers.
Bushnell started up his owm company and brought Japanese optics to the U.S. In the first few years 100% of all the produced Japanese binoculars were exported to the States and they took over 90% of the U.S. import market for more than a decade from mid 1950s.
In the present only some big giants are left over. Companies like Kamakura etc.
Kamakura R&D and produce optics for their own brand and for labels, like Bushnell. They also built optics for labels who do their own R&D, like Bushnell.
Bushnell, as a brand, does not make their own optics. They outsource that.
Fujinon does the same, but they also produce their own optics to be sure of a strict quality standard. You have to work for Fujinon to know which item is outsourced and which is not. Most brands outsource production, a few assemble by themselves (to make it legally "made in...." but the components are Japanese or Chinese made, only the labour....
Jan
jan van daalen
Well-known member
David,
To continue the story:
So it is possible for labels to sell the same bino to the consumer with the difference that the rubber armouring notes the name of that label. The price difference is depending on a few items, such as: A. Positioning of the label in the market. High prices assume better quality. B. The quantity of the production. 100.000 pieces in a production round will make the bino cheaper than 10.000 pieces will do. C. Direct sell from label to consumer, or is there wholesale and retail in between. D. Tax and costs of life are different in countries. For example: the current Bushnell legend 8x42HD is sold in my shop for $699,00 as advized price. I know the prices of my collegues in de U.S.!!
E. Currency fluctuations. There was a time the English Pound made it extremely profitable to buy Swarovski's in England en a lot of friends of mine went over to New York for a shop till you drop weekend with the wife because of the $$$$$.
Jan
To continue the story:
So it is possible for labels to sell the same bino to the consumer with the difference that the rubber armouring notes the name of that label. The price difference is depending on a few items, such as: A. Positioning of the label in the market. High prices assume better quality. B. The quantity of the production. 100.000 pieces in a production round will make the bino cheaper than 10.000 pieces will do. C. Direct sell from label to consumer, or is there wholesale and retail in between. D. Tax and costs of life are different in countries. For example: the current Bushnell legend 8x42HD is sold in my shop for $699,00 as advized price. I know the prices of my collegues in de U.S.!!
E. Currency fluctuations. There was a time the English Pound made it extremely profitable to buy Swarovski's in England en a lot of friends of mine went over to New York for a shop till you drop weekend with the wife because of the $$$$$.
Jan
brocknroller
porromaniac
What you can say is that you own a European brand bin that's "Made in Japan".
I have no problem with that, I like Japanese optics, they used to be "Best Buys", but now with the yen/dollar thang, top Chinbins are better buys (the dollar has recently strengthened, so perhaps we'll see prices coming down).
When you do a review, which you should put in the equipment review section since it will get buried in this thread, please have somebody else take a look through the bins and comment on the CA control since you are apparently immune to CA. That was one of allbinos negatives "Medium in the centre, significant on the edge". This might be due to how short they are. The shorter the FL, the higher the CA it seems. That would be my biggest concerns, being sensitive to CA.
Arek rated the edges at 78%, does that still hold up with the wider FOV? If so, that would be a larger sweet spot.
A strong point was no vignetting of the exit pupils, which is fairly common midsized roofs even some in the $1,000 category. Since the body is identical, I'm wondering if the prisms could handle the wider EPs?
How is the color balance? Is it "warm," "cold" or "neutral"? Although Arek did liken the light graph to the EL, the EL's transmission extends further on the red end before taking a steep nose dive whereas the Kahles falls off earlier but has a more gradual slope on the red end.
P.S. Please elaborate on this statement:
But the Kahles is at least as good and better in some respects than both my Swarovski (2010) SLC 8 x 30 WB and my Nikon 8 x 32 LXL/HGL are
Thanks.
<B>
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Jan,
Thanks for that. Yes I knew most of the story but I've lost track of the most recent history.
I noted that Kamakura sell under their own name in some countries. They have a factory in Dongguan as well. I can think of Chinese made pairs that seem very Japanese to me as well. With no real evidence it's interesting to speculate about similarities in individual pairs from Bushnell, Vixen, Opticron, Vortex, maybe even Kowa or the older Minox and probably others. Less confident about Pentax and Nikon though. I've not seen a Kahales yet.
David
Thanks for that. Yes I knew most of the story but I've lost track of the most recent history.
I noted that Kamakura sell under their own name in some countries. They have a factory in Dongguan as well. I can think of Chinese made pairs that seem very Japanese to me as well. With no real evidence it's interesting to speculate about similarities in individual pairs from Bushnell, Vixen, Opticron, Vortex, maybe even Kowa or the older Minox and probably others. Less confident about Pentax and Nikon though. I've not seen a Kahales yet.
David
jan van daalen
Well-known member
David,
Bushnell, Opticron and Vortex have never, by my knowledge, made optics by themselves. In the past (and maybe still) the others produced some models and outsourced other models. So the optics of the first three are made, or can be made, in every optical plant in the world and some models are clones for sure.
Kowa, Minox, Pentax and Nikon have produced by themselves and also sell clones under their name. Kahles only has one model in three versions; 8x32, 8x42 and 10x42.
There is no need for them to go shopping around for a nicer price. The production quantity is low and their focus is more aimed at quality and personally I believe that Kamakura is making this model strict according to Kahles R&D specifications. So there will be no Chinese Kahles.
There are though many Chinese, Japanese, etc. made Bushnells, Vixens, Opticrons, Vortex Pentax and Nikon bino's.
Opticron is a british "clone" of the succes story of Bushnell. The founder (daddy) imported japanese optics and sold in mainly in the UK and now also on the continent. They have a very good and skilled repaircenter (like Bushnell has). Their label offers a lot of different models so the origin of countries will be divers. Kahles has just one model.
Jan.
Bushnell, Opticron and Vortex have never, by my knowledge, made optics by themselves. In the past (and maybe still) the others produced some models and outsourced other models. So the optics of the first three are made, or can be made, in every optical plant in the world and some models are clones for sure.
Kowa, Minox, Pentax and Nikon have produced by themselves and also sell clones under their name. Kahles only has one model in three versions; 8x32, 8x42 and 10x42.
There is no need for them to go shopping around for a nicer price. The production quantity is low and their focus is more aimed at quality and personally I believe that Kamakura is making this model strict according to Kahles R&D specifications. So there will be no Chinese Kahles.
There are though many Chinese, Japanese, etc. made Bushnells, Vixens, Opticrons, Vortex Pentax and Nikon bino's.
Opticron is a british "clone" of the succes story of Bushnell. The founder (daddy) imported japanese optics and sold in mainly in the UK and now also on the continent. They have a very good and skilled repaircenter (like Bushnell has). Their label offers a lot of different models so the origin of countries will be divers. Kahles has just one model.
Jan.
brocknroller
porromaniac
I think that Kahles bins only having "Austria" stamped on the knob rather than "Made in Japan" is somewhat deceiving. ;{
As proof, here's an ad by Texas Nautical selling a used Kahles 8x32 bin.
Note the ad heading reads: Used Kahles 8x32 Binoculars Made in Austria
and at the end of the ad, they write: These are made in Austria.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Used-Kahles-8x32-Binoculars-Made-in-Austria-/320990783870?pt=Binocular&hash=item4abc8aa97e
If even companies that repair and sell Kahles bins don't know where they are made, how much less would consumers?
As I said earlier, I like Japanese optics, but I don't like when a salesperson or a company tries to mislead me into thinking that a product is something that it's not.
<B>
As proof, here's an ad by Texas Nautical selling a used Kahles 8x32 bin.
Note the ad heading reads: Used Kahles 8x32 Binoculars Made in Austria
and at the end of the ad, they write: These are made in Austria.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Used-Kahles-8x32-Binoculars-Made-in-Austria-/320990783870?pt=Binocular&hash=item4abc8aa97e
If even companies that repair and sell Kahles bins don't know where they are made, how much less would consumers?
As I said earlier, I like Japanese optics, but I don't like when a salesperson or a company tries to mislead me into thinking that a product is something that it's not.
<B>
