Uncertain and Rustic (1 Viewer)

I'm sure that this has been asked a thousand times before but is there really any reliable way to separate the two species without dissection?

I've been photographing all the specimens I've trapped over the last week or so and can't find any that meet all the criteria set out in MBGBI or for example here http://www.northumberlandmoths.org.uk/pdf/THE UNCERTAIN AND THE RUSTIC.pdf.

In fact different references seem sometimes to contradict each other e.g MBGBI states that Hoplodrina alsines has 'fuller, larger stigmata' whilst Waring and Townsend pictures Hoplodrina alsines with smaller stigmata than the H.blanda pictured next to it.

Is it safe to record all broad winged examples with a strong median fascia as Uncertain and narrow winged individuals with a weak or no median fascia as Rustic? I'm not sure that it is.

Thanks

Nick

According to our recorder no, always lumped unless deprived of their bits.

Andy

Unlike the marbled minors the characters of uncertain and rustic do seem to stick more reliably. For instance when I found my first rustic, it was obviously "different" compared to the uncertain in more than just pattern. But whether that rustic was rustic or Vine's rustic...ahem.

The reason I posted is that I've seen on other forums people confidently IDing Uncertains and Rustcs on stigmata size, colour etc. I wasn't convinced personally. I get a few that I can reasonably confidently ascribe to one species or the other but the majority seem to fit somewhere between.

I've seen similar postings confidently identifying Common and Lesser Common Rustics. I'm never sure if this is over-confidence, or lack of experience, but they are another species pair that can't be done without examining their genitalia. The same goes for Uncertain and Rustic (my CR won't accept un-dissected records too).
If you look at the plates in Waring et al it looks quite simple - but years of trapping leads me to believe that it isn't. I've seen and dissected many specimens that were confidently identified by others (including 'experts'), only to discover that they were wrong when dissected.
Martin

Common and lesser common rustic have their general characteristics, like each of the marbled minors do. For instance lesser common rustic is usually dark with a white spot, and common rustic is usually pale or sandy brown. But common rustic can also be dark with a spot, sometimes.

So while it may indicate one species, it isn't diagnostic.