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Oenanthe sp., Bulgaria

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Old Sunday 13th September 2020, 12:36   #1
Pavel
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Oenanthe sp., Bulgaria

A possible hybrid Wheatear captured by my friend Dimitar Dimitrov on 27.08.2020 near Cape Kaliakra, northern Black Sea coast of Bulgaria. Please help ID. Many thanks!
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Old Sunday 13th September 2020, 16:47   #2
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I remembered when I lived in E. Province Saudi Arabia, being bamboozled by the variety of wheatears that passed through each Spring and Autumn. I sometimes thought no two were the same :)
I would probably write black-eared for this one?
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Old Monday 14th September 2020, 06:41   #3
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Perched it just looks like an (Eastern) Black-eared but this tail pattern is really strange... I've never seen EBEW showing that. But a hybrid? Who should be the other parent? I would guess it's bird with just an unusual tail...
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Old Monday 14th September 2020, 07:01   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CARERY View Post
Perched it just looks like an (Eastern) Black-eared but this tail pattern is really strange... I've never seen EBEW showing that. But a hybrid? Who should be the other parent? I would guess it's bird with just an unusual tail...
In this part of Bulgaria there are lots of hybrids (melanoleuca x pleschanka) but indeed the tail doesn't match...
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Old Monday 14th September 2020, 07:03   #5
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Pied is also present at this site and rather more abundant, but on a visit in June, Scridifer and I found that the populations seemed to be separated by location, Pied preferring the area nearer the point and Black-eared more obvious further back, around the car park. They could of course hybridise, but that wouldn't explain this aberrant tail pattern.

Roland, the juveniles you see at this site are even more difficult.
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Old Monday 14th September 2020, 07:13   #6
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Some strange kick back on the tail surely! Pied x EBEW wouldn’t produce a tail like this. It looks more like a Hooded Wheatear tail but there’s nowhere in any of the ranges these two species would connect that’s close to Bulgaria is there apart from maybe Southern Turkey - are there any known hybrids of Hooded/Pied/EBEW? I wonder if it’s just a case of partially leucistic retrices?
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Old Monday 14th September 2020, 14:34   #7
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Originally Posted by Deb Burhinus View Post
Some strange kick back on the tail surely! Pied x EBEW wouldn’t produce a tail like this. It looks more like a Hooded Wheatear tail but there’s nowhere in any of the ranges these two species would connect that’s close to Bulgaria is there apart from maybe Southern Turkey - are there any known hybrids of Hooded/Pied/EBEW? I wonder if it’s just a case of partially leucistic retrices?
Just another comment below from Fabian Schneider capturing PW last year in BG. From 25 birds 10% were hybrids Pied x EBEW.
"Hi, no hybrid with Hooded. The tail is always very variable among Oeanthe melanoleuca and pleschanka (both can have almost all white tail or with a lot of black), see example below. So tail criteria aren't good to determine the species (only good criteria is the little black in the corner of the tail typical of the groupe melanoleuca/pleschanka). Probably in the reality there is a higher percentage of hybrid, but they look like pleschanka." FS

See tail of pleschanka from Bulgaria.
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Old Monday 14th September 2020, 14:51   #8
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Just one of my "finsch-looking" hybrid photos (Pied x EBEW) from last year taken in the same area, showing a similar tail patern.
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Old Monday 14th September 2020, 15:06   #9
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So Pavel, are you saying the tail pattern of your bird is within the ‘normal’ variation for melanoleuca/pleshanka (even when hybrid genes are not involved or for all intents and purposes look perfect anyway for Pied Wheatear - regardless of ‘purity’?)- It seems this is what FS means. If so, what leads you to think the OP is a hybrid?

it’s a bit worrying there can be this lack of reliance on tail pattern criteria. Anyway, I learned something here as I have never seen so much white on the tail of either sp.
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Old Monday 14th September 2020, 16:54   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deb Burhinus View Post
So Pavel, are you saying the tail pattern of your bird is within the ‘normal’ variation for melanoleuca/pleshanka (even when hybrid genes are not involved or for all intents and purposes look perfect anyway for Pied Wheatear - regardless of ‘purity’?)- It seems this is what FS means. If so, what leads you to think the OP is a hybrid?

it’s a bit worrying there can be this lack of reliance on tail pattern criteria. Anyway, I learned something here as I have never seen so much white on the tail of either sp.
"My bird" is a typical kind of "finsch-looking" hybrid (PW x EBEW) and I would say that the tail pattern is within the ‘normal’ variation for melanoleuca/pleshanka but not the most frequent case, e.g. to see such a tail you need to spot let say between 15 and 30 different birds. However, I am not a specialists on hybrids and will pass your reasonable questions to Fabian.
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Old Monday 14th September 2020, 20:16   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pavel View Post
"My bird" is a typical kind of "finsch-looking" hybrid (PW x EBEW) and I would say that the tail pattern is within the ‘normal’ variation for melanoleuca/pleshanka but not the most frequent case, e.g. to see such a tail you need to spot let say between 15 and 30 different birds. However, I am not a specialists on hybrids and will pass your reasonable questions to Fabian.
Hi Pavel

We had a miscommunication- I was referring to the OP bird when I said ‘your’ bird in my previous post when I should have said ‘your friend’s bird”.

(Clearly ‘your’ ‘Finch’s’ style PW x EBE does not have a tail like the OP bird and is a more obvious hybrid)

I was asking in my previous post if FS would regard the OP bird (sent by your friend) as having a tail that falls within this degree of variation to which he refers. If so, my question is what makes you think it is a hybrid then because it looks otherwise fine for EBW?

Thanks!
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Old Tuesday 15th September 2020, 10:54   #12
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Originally Posted by Deb Burhinus View Post
Hi Pavel

We had a miscommunication- I was referring to the OP bird when I said ‘your’ bird in my previous post when I should have said ‘your friend’s bird”.

(Clearly ‘your’ ‘Finch’s’ style PW x EBE does not have a tail like the OP bird and is a more obvious hybrid)

I was asking in my previous post if FS would regard the OP bird (sent by your friend) as having a tail that falls within this degree of variation to which he refers. If so, my question is what makes you think it is a hybrid then because it looks otherwise fine for EBW?

Thanks!
Hi Deb,
Please see Fabian's answer, as follows:
"In my opinion, it is most likely a pure melanoleuca" FS

Hope it helps!
Greetings,
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Old Tuesday 15th September 2020, 11:52   #13
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Hi Deb,
Please see Fabian's answer, as follows:
"In my opinion, it is most likely a pure melanoleuca" FS

Hope it helps!
Greetings,
Lol - Helps who!? How did this thread become about me looking to ID your friend’s bird You were the one asking for help so FS’s answer on the identity of OP is for your benefit surely?

You didn’t answer my question to you as to why you thought this bird was a hybrid despite FS’s view that the tail falls within normal variability ?? (As per your opening post)

(Thank you however, for sharing FS’s response to your ID query - tail pattern in pure Pied and pure Black-eared Wheatear are clearly more variable than most of us realised.)
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Old Tuesday 15th September 2020, 15:46   #14
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Lol - Helps who!? How did this thread become about me looking to ID your friend’s bird You were the one asking for help so FS’s answer on the identity of OP is for your benefit surely?

You didn’t answer my question to you as to why you thought this bird was a hybrid despite FS’s view that the tail falls within normal variability ?? (As per your opening post)

(Thank you however, for sharing FS’s response to your ID query - tail pattern in pure Pied and pure Black-eared Wheatear are clearly more variable than most of us realised.)
You are welcome!
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Old Tuesday 15th September 2020, 17:15   #15
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You are welcome!
??

There seems to be a real language problem.

So, to recap so I am clear, the reason you started the thread was to ask for help from BF members here because you thought the OP bird was a hybrid.


So, why did you believe your bird is a hybrid? (presumably you run your Wheatear IDs past FS anyway). Do you see something (other than the ‘normal variant’ of tail pattern) that gives you reason for suspecting a hybrid and starting this thread?
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Old Wednesday 16th September 2020, 07:04   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deb Burhinus View Post
??

There seems to be a real language problem.

So, to recap so I am clear, the reason you started the thread was to ask for help from BF members here because you thought the OP bird was a hybrid.


So, why did you believe your bird is a hybrid? (presumably you run your Wheatear IDs past FS anyway). Do you see something (other than the ‘normal variant’ of tail pattern) that gives you reason for suspecting a hybrid and starting this thread?
Dear Deb,
I don't accept your way of communication, sorry!
Have a nice day.
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Old Wednesday 16th September 2020, 08:48   #17
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really?!

I just wanted to know what your reasons were any reasons were for suspecting your OP bird was a hybrid other than the tail pattern. I’m trying hard to understand whether there’s any physical clues (other than the tail, which you subsequently told me was normal) to the OP bird being not pure EBW that you had picked up on. Clearly it’s difficult to distinguish these hybrid birds in the field so thought you had some valuable experience? if you think my question was inappropriate- I repeated it several times because it seemed you had difficulty understanding the question.

Have a nice day yourself - very odd thread
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