Join for FREE
It only takes a minute!
Zeiss - Always on the lookout for something special – Shop now

Welcome to BirdForum.
BirdForum is the net's largest birding community, dedicated to wild birds and birding, and is absolutely FREE! You are most welcome to register for an account, which allows you to take part in lively discussions in the forum, post your pictures in the gallery and more.

Field or root Vole?

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread
Old Wednesday 16th January 2019, 10:05   #1
opisska
Jan Ebr
 
opisska's Avatar

 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Warszawa
Posts: 1,006
Field or root Vole?

Or something completely different? :) We were pretty excited to finally even glimpse something vole-y, but the small rodents are so difficult! It's next to the Siemanowka reservoir, NE Poland, went to hide to a pile of wood, habitats are marsh/water from one side, small pine forest from the other, some grassland surrounds.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	1-IMG_1034.JPG
Views:	46
Size:	236.4 KB
ID:	684887  Click image for larger version

Name:	2-IMG_1035.JPG
Views:	39
Size:	178.7 KB
ID:	684888  Click image for larger version

Name:	3-IMG_1036.JPG
Views:	26
Size:	327.0 KB
ID:	684889  
__________________
World: 1894 WP: 532
opisska is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Wednesday 16th January 2019, 12:24   #2
andyadcock
Registered User
 
andyadcock's Avatar

 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Nottingham UK and St Petersburg, Russia
Posts: 13,419
You might find that anything beyond 'probability' is impossible, many of these are identified specifically only, by looking at dentition.

Common Pine Vole Microtus subterraneus must be in the mix too?
__________________
Andy A

Last edited by andyadcock : Wednesday 16th January 2019 at 12:27.
andyadcock is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Wednesday 16th January 2019, 12:39   #3
opisska
Jan Ebr
 
opisska's Avatar

 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Warszawa
Posts: 1,006
Is common vole ever this gray? And the teeth, there id no way but to catch them (which is illegal in Poland), right? Or is looking for bite marks on things any good?
__________________
World: 1894 WP: 532
opisska is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Wednesday 16th January 2019, 12:43   #4
andyadcock
Registered User
 
andyadcock's Avatar

 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Nottingham UK and St Petersburg, Russia
Posts: 13,419
Quote:
Originally Posted by opisska View Post
Is common vole ever this gray? And the teeth, there id no way but to catch them (which is illegal in Poland), right? Or is looking for bite marks on things any good?
Not illegal to catch them in the UK as far as I know and some people do.

https://www.nhbs.com/search?q=small+mammal+trap
__________________
Andy A
andyadcock is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Wednesday 16th January 2019, 19:06   #5
opisska
Jan Ebr
 
opisska's Avatar

 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Warszawa
Posts: 1,006
Quote:
Originally Posted by andyadcock View Post
Not illegal to catch them in the UK as far as I know and some people do.

https://www.nhbs.com/search?q=small+mammal+trap
Sot the takeaway here is I should come to UK to fulfill my vole needs :)
__________________
World: 1894 WP: 532
opisska is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Wednesday 16th January 2019, 19:59   #6
andyadcock
Registered User
 
andyadcock's Avatar

 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Nottingham UK and St Petersburg, Russia
Posts: 13,419
Quote:
Originally Posted by opisska View Post
Sot the takeaway here is I should come to UK to fulfill my vole needs :)
Or just buy a trap, I'm sure they'll mail it but I'd be surprised if it's illegal to catch rodents in Poland and anyway, just don't get caught.....

I'm sure Poland has all the vole gratification you desire.
__________________
Andy A
andyadcock is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Wednesday 16th January 2019, 20:09   #7
opisska
Jan Ebr
 
opisska's Avatar

 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Warszawa
Posts: 1,006
Quote:
Originally Posted by andyadcock View Post
Or just buy a trap, I'm sure they'll mail it but I'd be surprised if it's illegal to catch rodents in Poland and anyway, just don't get caught.....

I'm sure Poland has all the vole gratification you desire.
I just read it on mammalwatching.com specifically about Poland. Even in Czech Republic, I would feel "wrong" trapping any living animal without thorough investigation to the legality of such act. Maybe it's worth studying more, but I wasn't able to quickly find out whether trapping of voles is legal in Czech Republic, where I actually fluently understand the language, so finding out how is it in Poland, where I only get the gist of the text is even harder.
__________________
World: 1894 WP: 532
opisska is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Wednesday 16th January 2019, 20:35   #8
dantheman
Bah humbug
 
dantheman's Avatar

 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Cornwall
Posts: 11,998
Blog Entries: 2
Quote:
Originally Posted by opisska View Post
So the takeaway here is I should come to UK to fulfill my vole needs :)
A lot easier too - only three main species - Bank, Field and the (much) larger Water Vole. Which may not be so fulfilling.

This may keep you entertained (or not) though -

https://twitter.com/Vole_Facts

__________________
stithiansreservoirbirding.blogspot.co.uk/ - last update 10/11/15 - really rather remarkable still!!!
dantheman is online now  
Reply With Quote
Old Wednesday 16th January 2019, 20:45   #9
jurek
Registered User
 
jurek's Avatar

 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Switzerland/Poland
Posts: 3,951
I would say root vole on the basis of tail length.
jurek is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Friday 18th January 2019, 13:32   #10
opisska
Jan Ebr
 
opisska's Avatar

 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Warszawa
Posts: 1,006
Quote:
Originally Posted by jurek View Post
I would say root vole on the basis of tail length.
The tail length seems to be pretty different between the species indeed based on illustrations, do you know how reliable of a measure it is? Because Root Vole would then be really by far the best choice for that tail.
__________________
World: 1894 WP: 532
opisska is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Friday 18th January 2019, 17:44   #11
Jos Stratford
Beast from the East
 
Jos Stratford's Avatar

 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Exile in Eastern Europe
Posts: 16,149
Referred these photographs to a guy who has conducted long-term research into rodents in Lithuania, ie just a few kilometres north of this individual. He traps large numbers each year of all the potential species that this individual could be - stating the obvious that grey voles are not easy, his opinion is that this individual cannot be identified. My expertise with this group is not enough to argue with him :)
__________________
For photographs and articles, Lithuania and beyond, click here for my website

Last edited by Jos Stratford : Friday 18th January 2019 at 18:04.
Jos Stratford is offline  
Reply With Quote

BF Supporter 2007 2009 Support BirdForum With A Donation

Old Friday 18th January 2019, 20:20   #12
jurek
Registered User
 
jurek's Avatar

 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Switzerland/Poland
Posts: 3,951
Not, unfortunately. Only I remember that this species, other than the field/common vole duo, can be recognized with difficulty at sight.

And some mammalologists say that it is overdue to develop visual key to identify small rodents (without killing and looking at their teeth), because bats which are equally similar to each other can be identified visually.
jurek is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Saturday 19th January 2019, 15:55   #13
opisska
Jan Ebr
 
opisska's Avatar

 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Warszawa
Posts: 1,006
Can I ask then, what are the possible species? From the Polish list, Snow and Tatra do not occur in the area, Bank is supposed to be really visibly rufous and Water is quite different overall, so the suspects are Root, Field, Common and Pine?
__________________
World: 1894 WP: 532
opisska is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Saturday 19th January 2019, 16:30   #14
andyadcock
Registered User
 
andyadcock's Avatar

 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Nottingham UK and St Petersburg, Russia
Posts: 13,419
Quote:
Originally Posted by jurek View Post
Not, unfortunately. Only I remember that this species, other than the field/common vole duo, can be recognized with difficulty at sight.

And some mammalologists say that it is overdue to develop visual key to identify small rodents (without killing and looking at their teeth), because bats which are equally similar to each other can be identified visually.
Can they?

What's this then, Novi Sad, Serbia, winter 2014.

Our resident Bat expert in Nottingham, couldn't / wouldn't ID it.

Apologies Jan,don't mean to hijack your thread.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	20140121051945372.jpg
Views:	26
Size:	726.7 KB
ID:	685086  
__________________
Andy A
andyadcock is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Saturday 19th January 2019, 18:07   #15
Jos Stratford
Beast from the East
 
Jos Stratford's Avatar

 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Exile in Eastern Europe
Posts: 16,149
Quote:
Originally Posted by opisska View Post
.... the suspects are Root, Field, Common and Pine?
Of these, I am not sure of the abundance of Pine Vole in north-east Poland.

In Lithuania, despite quite intense study (trapping and obtaining the skulls and hind foots for identification), there are no records at all of the species.

It certainly does occur in Poland, as well as further north than Lithuania, but the range seems to arc around the territory of Lithuania - without me actually knowing the range in Poland, it would be reasonable to suppose Siemanowka is somewhere near the edge of the known range, perhaps it does occur there, but perhaps not. And if it does, maybe the abundance is low ...or maybe not :)

Maybe ask in Polish institute for ecology.
__________________
For photographs and articles, Lithuania and beyond, click here for my website
Jos Stratford is offline  
Reply With Quote

BF Supporter 2007 2009 Support BirdForum With A Donation

Old Saturday 19th January 2019, 18:42   #16
Farnboro John
Registered User

 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Farnborough
Posts: 12,902
Quote:
Originally Posted by andyadcock View Post
Can they?

What's this then, Novi Sad, Serbia, winter 2014.

Our resident Bat expert in Nottingham, couldn't / wouldn't ID it.

Apologies Jan,don't mean to hijack your thread.
Its a Noctule sp, I've no experience of Greater Noctule to rule that out but it certainly isn't Leisler's (=Lesser Noctule).

My gut says normal Noctule, and I note the Wikipedia list of mammals for Serbia doesn't mention Greater Noctule.

I also don't mean to hijack the thread. Sorry Jan!

John
Farnboro John is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Sunday 20th January 2019, 15:27   #17
andyadcock
Registered User
 
andyadcock's Avatar

 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Nottingham UK and St Petersburg, Russia
Posts: 13,419
Quote:
Originally Posted by Farnboro John View Post
Its a Noctule sp, I've no experience of Greater Noctule to rule that out but it certainly isn't Leisler's (=Lesser Noctule).

My gut says normal Noctule, and I note the Wikipedia list of mammals for Serbia doesn't mention Greater Noctule.

I also don't mean to hijack the thread. Sorry Jan!

John
Cheers John.
__________________
Andy A
andyadcock is offline  
Reply With Quote
Advertisement
Reply


Thread Tools
Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Bank or Field Vole kelynrowan Mammals 12 Wednesday 11th April 2018 13:56
field vole ? roywez67 Mammals 2 Wednesday 3rd February 2016 22:48
Field Vole in Northern Ireland MarkHows Mammals 0 Thursday 27th September 2012 22:47
England - Bank vole or Field vole? purpleturtle Mammals 7 Monday 10th October 2005 19:34
Field (or bank?) vole--ID help needed, please! Surreybirder Mammals 3 Monday 17th May 2004 17:46

{googleads}

Fatbirder's Top 1000 Birding Websites

Help support BirdForum

Page generated in 0.23020196 seconds with 32 queries
All times are GMT. The time now is 23:30.