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A.Nisus or A.gentilis NELondon ? (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter KenM
- Start date
Jean FRANCOIS
Well-known member
Impossible to say. Possibly a Goshawk.
Jean
Jean
Nutcracker
Stop Brexit!
Me too :t:
birdmeister
Well-known member
I would tend towards Sparrowhawk too. Not much to work off of in the photos, but I noticed two things.
1. Underpart color and pattern seems wrong for either age of Goshawk. This is probably the weaker of the two points considering lighting on the trees is also quite warm.
2. I have limited personal experience with Goshawk, but from the few I've seen and from pictures Goshawk often shows a tail that's almost "wedge-shaped" when folded, a more subtle but similar shape to Raven tails. In Ken's first photo I see a squared-off tail, even with the photo's blurriness.
1. Underpart color and pattern seems wrong for either age of Goshawk. This is probably the weaker of the two points considering lighting on the trees is also quite warm.
2. I have limited personal experience with Goshawk, but from the few I've seen and from pictures Goshawk often shows a tail that's almost "wedge-shaped" when folded, a more subtle but similar shape to Raven tails. In Ken's first photo I see a squared-off tail, even with the photo's blurriness.
Deb Burhinus
Used to be well known! 😎
It’s a bulky bird but a Gos with its wings this far swept back would show a more narrow hand imo, the hips look narrow to me and the wings too short and the tail too long - A female Sparrowhawk for me but its not an easy image.
(You’ll have to come up to Norfolk to get your eye in - there is no mistaking a Sparrowhawk for a Goshawk in the field after a bit of practice!)
(You’ll have to come up to Norfolk to get your eye in - there is no mistaking a Sparrowhawk for a Goshawk in the field after a bit of practice!)
KenM
Well-known member
Regarding tail shape, here are some shots of A.gentilis...squared, tapered and rounded, clearly tails can't be set to a single shape as this would reduce the bird's aerial movement somewhat.
The subject bird, it was a....''now you see it, now you don't'' scenario spanning just a few seconds. My impression was that it looked ''not insubstantial'' between lower chest and UTC's?
Cheers
The subject bird, it was a....''now you see it, now you don't'' scenario spanning just a few seconds. My impression was that it looked ''not insubstantial'' between lower chest and UTC's?
Cheers
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Andy Adcock
Worst person on Birdforum
I wouldn't rule Gos out, deep chested, broad winged and seemingly 'capped'?
Deb Burhinus
Used to be well known! 😎
I agree re the ‘rounded’ tail criteria - I’ve never found that particularly helpful (or needed to as for me other features are more easily seen) Your first image has the classic gizz of a Gos for me with a pointed hand, relatively short tapered tail (ie narrower at the distal end) and broad hips (ie not fluffy utc’s which sometimes gives Female Sparrowhawk a misleading broad hip shape. I’m not 100% on the OP but structurely nothing rules out Sparrowhawk which would be much more likely in the location imo
just to be clear the ‘first image’ I was referring to here as having a classic Gos gizz is the first of the second batch of images not the OP!
just to be clear the ‘first image’ I was referring to here as having a classic Gos gizz is the first of the second batch of images not the OP!
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I see a lot of goshawks. Still can't id this with certainty, but the tail do looks long and square cut at the end.
Just to comment the previous post - I think the square tail is very helpful in the field, and you can often see it from very far, although there are of course other features that sometimes is easier to see, it depends.
Just to comment the previous post - I think the square tail is very helpful in the field, and you can often see it from very far, although there are of course other features that sometimes is easier to see, it depends.
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Biancone
to err is human
Long tail & small head in first images suggest Sparrowhawk to me. Image quality doesn't give useful info on colour or pattern. Nothing conclusive for Gos IMO. Of course the second birds are unmistakable! Never could quite understand emphasis on nuances of tail shape because it varies so much with mode of flight (although the tapered appearance of closed tail in first of the second batch is classic Gos).
Brian
Brian
KenM
Well-known member
.....it appears Brian, that gentilis is not alone with the ''tail tapering'' :t:
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Simon Wates
Well-known member
A tapering tale o
(I find that in real life, Goshawks just move differently and as already mentioned, hardly incite thoughts of Sprawks).
(I find that in real life, Goshawks just move differently and as already mentioned, hardly incite thoughts of Sprawks).
Deb Burhinus
Used to be well known! 😎
The ‘tapered’ shape of a Gos’s tail (in the meaning I used it above) is referring to the proximal width of the tail base (excluding utcs) compared to the distal width measured as from the two outer tail feathers (the widest part of the end of the tail). A Goshawk’s tail is wider at the base and narrower at the distal end - In Sparrowhawk it’s the other way round, narrower at the base, wider at the distal end. Hence, Goshawk have a slightly tapered tail shape.
From a side view, this can’t really be assessed - only from above or below like the first of your suite of Gos images. (or on a good view of a perched bird)
This is different to the ‘rounded tail’ people refer to which is the shape caused by the outer retrices being noticeably shorter than the inner ones as in Goshawk, not in Sparrowhawk.
At least that’s how Ive always understood it.
Simon Wates
Well-known member
Nice explanation Deb (especially after my feeble input ).
I've come to the conclusion that the "traditional" Sparrowhawk/Goshawk ID difficulties are really down to the impossible conundrum of separating Sparrowhawk from wannabe Goshawks.
All the same, what is Birdforum without Ken's tricky Sparrowhawk photos? :-O
). I've come to the conclusion that the "traditional" Sparrowhawk/Goshawk ID difficulties are really down to the impossible conundrum of separating Sparrowhawk from wannabe Goshawks.
All the same, what is Birdforum without Ken's tricky Sparrowhawk photos? :-O
Deb Burhinus
Used to be well known! 😎
Andy Adcock
Worst person on Birdforum
Nice explanation Deb (especially after my feeble input
I've come to the conclusion that the "traditional" Sparrowhawk/Goshawk ID difficulties are really down to the impossible conundrum of separating Sparrowhawk from wannabe Goshawks.
All the same, what is Birdforum without Ken's tricky Sparrowhawk photos? :-O
Yeah, you'd think he'd know what they look like by now..........
Biancone
to err is human
Ken, guess I expressed myself clumsily! I didn't mean that a tapered tail was unique to Goshawk, simply that the tapered tail shape of the first bird in your 2nd batch contributes a lot to the unmistakable classic look of a Goshawk in your evocative image.
Brian
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KenM
Well-known member
Yeah, you'd think he'd know what they look like by now..........
One thing for sure Andy, I know when I’ve got a “flying” Accipiter, classic female Gos v (small) male Sprawks...a doddle!
However it’s the “in-betweenies” that can often be problematic, particularly if it’s a silhouetted profile at c200m of “now-you-see-it...now-you-don’t”......gone!
Generally speaking (for Accipiters) if it appears to have “bulk” then you should be on to a winner.....fingers x’d. :eek!:
Cheers
Andy Adcock
Worst person on Birdforum
Ken, when I've seen definite Gos on my patch in Russia, there is just no doubting.
