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I have a kitten for you. (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Angus T
- Start date
The Drinker
...I do it with the light on.
My money would be on Poplar (Bifida) Angus, but I don't get any of the Furcula's . I see certain features of both Poplar and Sallow in the photo, however the central band seems to have little angling towards the costa and it also seems to have quite a well marked dark edge, both of which seem to be the strongest identification features I can see.
Regardless of ID it's a nice moth. Any chance of you sending a few my way
Regardless of ID it's a nice moth. Any chance of you sending a few my way
Thanks Ian, opinion is divided at moment, (2 all not including myself) so I moved moth a took more pics. Judging by lack of other replies here it seems others are unsure as well.
I'm inclined to favour Sallow myself, but put ID query out because I couldn't convince myself that it isn't Poplar.
So do these pics strengthen case for Poplar, or otherwise?
Easterly wind at moment, so getting moths to travel to IoM at moment is wishful thinking
I'm inclined to favour Sallow myself, but put ID query out because I couldn't convince myself that it isn't Poplar.
So do these pics strengthen case for Poplar, or otherwise?
Easterly wind at moment, so getting moths to travel to IoM at moment is wishful thinking
Attachments
Surreybirder
Ken Noble
It looks more like poplar to me, just going on the thickness of the black line behind the cross mark... and comparing the pix with Waring and Townsend.
So it's probably be a sallow
So it's probably be a sallow
harry eales
Ancient Entomologist
Hi Angus.
I also think it's Poplar Kitten but as Ian says there are some Sallow Kittenish markings,
Having dutifully looked in all my books and some set specimens of Sallow Kitten I still think it's a Poplar Putty Tat.
Harry
I also think it's Poplar Kitten but as Ian says there are some Sallow Kittenish markings,
Having dutifully looked in all my books and some set specimens of Sallow Kitten I still think it's a Poplar Putty Tat.
Harry
harry eales said:
Thanks Harry,
I've asked a couple Irish moth..ers for opinion. I'm still getting votes for both sides. If I was to stick with Waring et al, I'd go with Poplar, but the text drawing on pg 73 in Skinner(mk ll) would suggest Sallow to me anyway. Of course I have benefit of having the moth in hand and I still favour Sallow. its looking more likely that it may need closer inspection, pending on what couple guys on this side of pond say.
Surreybirder
Ken Noble
Still having kittens
Perhaps it's a hybrid :bounce:
Isn't that strange, looking at the drawing in Skinner mark I, I'd have gone for poplar. both on the thickness of the mark behind the cross band, and also the shape of the band.Angus T said:
Perhaps it's a hybrid :bounce:
Surreybirder said:
Differences of opinion about recent ID requests have shown how differently each of us view moths, and on the emphasis we look at different parts of them to formulate our iD. Its very interesting.
One respondent from yahoo group (off group) who is familiar with both "if you get Poplar you will know it! They look different, proportionately."
About the hybrid bit, weel you never know. The little fellow is still in fridge as may have to resort to looking at bits pending on answer from this side of pond.
And thanks Chris for your opinion.
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harry eales
Ancient Entomologist
Hi Angus,
It's a pity your specimen isn't a female, you might have been able to obtain ova and breed a series, that might have given you more clues. A genitalia prep., may be the only way to finally determine exactly what it is.
As to Ken's suggestion that it may possibly be a Sallow/Poplar hybrid, I suppose it may be possible, they are very closely related. However, I haven't heard on this occurring naturally in the wild. Certainly hybrids do occur between certain species but they are very rare.
Hybridism is more frequent when initiated artificially by an insect breeder, but the results are frequently very poor with many larva dying when young, or emerging as crippled adults. Certainly the Eyed Hawk x Poplar Hawk hybrid seems to be reasonably successfull, but whether it occurs naturally in the wild I'm not at all sure.
Several years ago I made many attempts to hybridize dwarf forms of Large Heath butterfly with typical sized Small Heath butterfly. In these two species the genitalia are identical, although slightly larger in Large Heath. By using a dwarf form of the larger species I had hoped that this size difference in genitalia may have been evened out. After considerable experimentation a mating was achieved. Larval mortality was high and only four managed to pupate. Of the resultant images, three had crippled wings, only one specimen reaching the perfect state. This hybrid carried all the markings of a Large Heath, the only detectable difference being a lighter upper wing coloring reminiscent of the the Small Heath.
I think if Angus can locate a virgin female of Sallow Kitten and place it in a breeding cage with his undetermined specimen it is likely, that if a mating occurs, then his specimen is a Sallow Kitten. If no mating takes place then we will be back where we started.
Harry Eales.
It's a pity your specimen isn't a female, you might have been able to obtain ova and breed a series, that might have given you more clues. A genitalia prep., may be the only way to finally determine exactly what it is.
As to Ken's suggestion that it may possibly be a Sallow/Poplar hybrid, I suppose it may be possible, they are very closely related. However, I haven't heard on this occurring naturally in the wild. Certainly hybrids do occur between certain species but they are very rare.
Hybridism is more frequent when initiated artificially by an insect breeder, but the results are frequently very poor with many larva dying when young, or emerging as crippled adults. Certainly the Eyed Hawk x Poplar Hawk hybrid seems to be reasonably successfull, but whether it occurs naturally in the wild I'm not at all sure.
Several years ago I made many attempts to hybridize dwarf forms of Large Heath butterfly with typical sized Small Heath butterfly. In these two species the genitalia are identical, although slightly larger in Large Heath. By using a dwarf form of the larger species I had hoped that this size difference in genitalia may have been evened out. After considerable experimentation a mating was achieved. Larval mortality was high and only four managed to pupate. Of the resultant images, three had crippled wings, only one specimen reaching the perfect state. This hybrid carried all the markings of a Large Heath, the only detectable difference being a lighter upper wing coloring reminiscent of the the Small Heath.
I think if Angus can locate a virgin female of Sallow Kitten and place it in a breeding cage with his undetermined specimen it is likely, that if a mating occurs, then his specimen is a Sallow Kitten. If no mating takes place then we will be back where we started.
Harry Eales.
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harry eales said:
Considering this is only my 4th Furcula sp and first this year, I'm unlikely to find a female, even if I had the will to do it. I did record the other 3 last year as Sallow and have pictures of 2 of them, though one is of quite a worn specimen. haven't looked at these pics in detail yet to see how I came up with Sallow Kitten, but it could have been simply that Poplar is so scarce. However, considering the amount of scarce species that I'm recording, that arguement is wearing very thin and isn't really valid.
The Drinker
...I do it with the light on.
Hi folks,
During an offline discussion with CJW (during which I suffered humiliation re disputed Silver Y thread - see seperate post in that thread) he explained his confidence of the ID of this moth. CJW has had the benefit of actually catching Furcula sp, but I never let that intimidate me. However, following discussion and in an effort to demonstrate his confidence CJW stated that, should he be wrong, he would stand in the window of our local Woolworths store bearing his rear to passing shoppers.
I think this up's the ante! I can't wait for the chance of a positive ID.
During an offline discussion with CJW (during which I suffered humiliation re disputed Silver Y thread - see seperate post in that thread) he explained his confidence of the ID of this moth. CJW has had the benefit of actually catching Furcula sp, but I never let that intimidate me. However, following discussion and in an effort to demonstrate his confidence CJW stated that, should he be wrong, he would stand in the window of our local Woolworths store bearing his rear to passing shoppers.
I think this up's the ante! I can't wait for the chance of a positive ID.
The Drinker said:following discussion and in an effort to demonstrate his confidence CJW stated that, should he be wrong, he would stand in the window of our local Woolworths store bearing his rear to passing shoppers.
I think this up's the ante! I can't wait for the chance of a positive ID.
Well its settled then, I'll keep it for the chop, though may have to wait some months.
It is now majority in favour of Sallow, but I've had very good argument from the other side. I feel a bit like referee in heavyweight clash!
harry eales
Ancient Entomologist
CJW said:
This has me wondering if Woolworths window is big enough. lol.
Sorry Chris it's my warped sense of humour again.
Harry
The Drinker
...I do it with the light on.
harry eales said:
Harry, If it wasn't I would gladly pay personally for it to be enlarged should it be neccessary. Trust me, it's about fifty feet wide, just about big enough to get an extra large display in it!!!!
Oh I can't wait. The months can't go quick enough......
CJW
Hit-and-run WUM
Looks like a job for the "nads doctor" then! Have you access to such a person's skills?I'd suggest sending it to Harry, but as he's in the Poplar camp, we couldn't trust the results!
Believe me, Woollies (and the population of Douglas) will not be seeing a mid.day full moon any time soon!
Believe me, Woollies (and the population of Douglas) will not be seeing a mid.day full moon any time soon!
harry eales
Ancient Entomologist
CJW said:Looks like a job for the "nads doctor" then! Have you access to such a person's skills?I'd suggest sending it to Harry, but as he's in the Poplar camp, we couldn't trust the results!
Believe me, Woollies (and the population of Douglas) will not be seeing a mid.day full moon any time soon!
I'm perfectly willing to do a 'nads' job if Angus wishes, and return the specimen to him for his or others verification. Poplar Kittens are very rare in my neck of the woods and I have no specimens in my small collection so obtaining a substitute would be more trouble than it's worth. Egads Chris, thats a slur on my veracity (whatever that is) lol.
Harry
