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Laser pointers (1 Viewer)

Wow...knowing what I know about lasers (I geek out about them, honestly), I'd never use one to point out birds. I just go with describing visual queues and hope people can find them. If not, then that's just the way it goes.

Given the grief bird photographers can get over using a flash, I'm surprised any would think of using a laser pointer near birds, which has far worse repercussions for human and bird alike.

Heck, I'm paranoid about using laser pointer toys around my cats.

|8.|
 
CalvinFold said:
I'm surprised any would think of using a laser pointer near birds, which has far worse repercussions for human and bird alike.

Heck, I'm paranoid about using laser pointer toys around my cats.
Click to expand...

Cats generally have worse repercussions on birds than laser pointers ;)
 
CalvinFold said:
Wow...knowing what I know about lasers (I geek out about them, honestly), I'd never use one to point out birds. I just go with describing visual queues and hope people can find them. If not, then that's just the way it goes.
Click to expand...

Good for you but as technology advances, some people (like me) like to actually have a higher % of seen birds so use a laser or any other technology that can give better observations.
CalvinFold said:
Given the grief bird photographers can get over using a flash, I'm surprised any would think of using a laser pointer near birds, which has far worse repercussions for human and bird alike.
Click to expand...

I have a very hard time thinking about what you mean by worse repercussions for human and bird alike... Just point a laser 2 meter below the bird for half a second, tell the other ones to look 2 meters up from the pointer and enjoy seeing a perched and totally oblivious bird longer and better. It isn't that hard.
The alternative is to keep on talking about that 3rd branch going up to the left, then a fork where you follow the lower branch, then another fork and ooops it's gone and frustration is a given.
 
Hi Temmie,

temmie said:
Just point a laser 2 meter below the bird for half a second, tell the other ones to look 2 meters up from the pointer and enjoy seeing a perched and totally oblivious bird longer and better. It isn't that hard.
Click to expand...

The thing is, if you shine the laser into the eye of a bird, you might damage or destroy its eyesight. You might be consciously avoiding the bird you're aware of, but end up blinding its less conspicious mate sitting 2 meters below, which you failed to spot.

People don't seem to realize how powerful these laser are ... there have been aviation flight safety incidents when people shone laser pointers at airliners coming in to land, from kilometers away.

Regards,

Henning
 
At the risk of saying the obvious. Birds in the field are much further than in an indoors laser trial (30m or more). The beam shines "near" the bird from the position of observers, but actually meters away. The light is also largely blocked by vegetation. Often the light stops on branches and leaves closest to the observers and does not reach the bird at all. In more open forest, the laser is useless because it is invisible in the sun, and must be pointed at some area of shadow even further away from the bird.

There may be additional factor that a shy bird normally hides its head and forebody behind vegetation. And that bird vision is different from humans, for example blinking reflex is much faster.

In the field, I never seen a bird taking notice of the laser pointer at all. In one case, the light shone actually on the back of an antbird. The antbird was moving in an extremely dense tangle of vegetation. It hopped so that the light was on its back, took no notice of it at all and then hopped further. It may or may not be possible to tease a wild bird like domestic cats are teased by laser, but I never tried it.
 
Hauksen said:
You might be consciously avoiding the bird you're aware of, but end up blinding its less conspicious mate sitting 2 meters below, which you failed to spot.
Click to expand...
Hi Henning,

that's a very theoretical possiblity and I have to say that the very few times I used a laser, it was like a 1-5 mW range laser.
In practice, I guess the biggest annoyance (and possibly harmful?) to the eyes of birds could be very powerful torches used for nightbirding. Some of the (awesome) pictures I see on the web these days, are made with torches that could blind me in a few seconds, and I am sure some of those are aimed at owls and nightjars with eyes wide open for minutes (a bit off topic maybe).
 
Frankly, all arguments are based on our, human vision. Birds and mammals are not necessary similar, and most likely very dissimilar.

Looking at the behavior of animals themselves, I don't see much difference. I know that powerful torches sometimes seem to disturb genets and cats. This is visible because they start to look away from the light. However in most cases I see no difference. Night birds may be able to adjust their pupils much faster than humans. Or they may not use sight much at all. Most night mammals operate by memory, hearing, touch and smell.

I simply see no avoidance of light. Of course, it is possible that night birds are disturbed but don't show it, because their alarm reaction is freezing. But for not I don't see much evidence.

However, birds and mammals are clearly disturbed my other associated activities, like noise or repeated playback.
 
Hi Temmie,

temmie said:
In practice, I guess the biggest annoyance (and possibly harmful?) to the eyes of birds could be very powerful torches used for nightbirding.
Click to expand...

Even the smallest laser pointer has a legal classification and a warning sticker. Laser emit coherent light, torches don't - so torches don't have these stickers. (A powerful torch might dazzle you, but a tiny laser is capable of causing tissue damage to your retina.)

Inexpensive laser pointers have a reputation both for routinely exceeding the legal power limits of their class, and for emitting plenty of invisible IR laser light in addition to the visible portion.

Occupational health and safety standards for lasers in most countries require systematic risk assessment and definition of precautionary measures, even for the use of nominally "safe" laser devices.

As a hobbyist, you're not bound by these rules, but it might be good to be aware of the risks anyway.

Regards,

Henning
 
temmie said:
The alternative is to keep on talking about that 3rd branch going up to the left, then a fork where you follow the lower branch, then another fork and ooops it's gone and frustration is a given.
Click to expand...
In which case, "bummer." Life won't end and it guarantees not bothering or accidentally injuring the bird.

Same with a camera flash really...if I notice the bird is bothered, I simply don't...not worth the photograph.

For me, the bird's welfare is more important than my photograph or someone else seeing the bird I'm trying to point out to them.
 
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CalvinFold said:
In which case, "bummer." Life won't end and it guarantees not bothering or accidentally injuring the bird.

Same with a camera flash really...if I notice the bird is bothered, I simply don't...not worth the photograph.

For me, the bird's welfare is more important than my photograph or someone else seeing the bird I'm trying to point out to them.
Click to expand...

You make it sound like it's and if/if, but for me it's no choice: you can combine the use of a laser without any less welfare for the bird. I have bothered more birds by simply walking on trails and flushing them (100ths), than by pointing them out with the laser point aimed at a safe distance (none).
So if the issue is the welfare of birds, there are more urgent issues.

Contrary to what another poster said, I have seen birds move or fly because of a laser pointer (both time guides using the pointer to draw circles around the bird, with the bird clearly flushed because of the reflection of the laser, or even some direct laser on the bird), and ofcourse me or others have warned said guides that their laser techniques were not really helping either the birds nor the observers as birds were being flushed.
Besides that, I really don't see anything wrong using a laser pointer as long as it is done correctly. [disclaimerI am well aware of dangers of single-wavelength concentrated light beams]
 
Hello,

I am researching laser pointers for pointing out birds and found this thread. I would like to add some important info I have come across with regard to safety. If you search for "laser classes" you will find many hits which list the CLASS of lasers and how safe they are in different viewing scenarios. I found that you should be looking for a class 1 or 2 laser for safety. So, please read the info about classes before you buy. As for power, my thinking is that a 50mW laser is the sweet spot price wise, but you decide how much you want to spend and what power you want.
 
jjinatx said:
Hello,

I am researching laser pointers for pointing out birds and found this thread. I would like to add some important info I have come across with regard to safety. If you search for "laser classes" you will find many hits which list the CLASS of lasers and how safe they are in different viewing scenarios. I found that you should be looking for a class 1 or 2 laser for safety. So, please read the info about classes before you buy. As for power, my thinking is that a 50mW laser is the sweet spot price wise, but you decide how much you want to spend and what power you want.
Click to expand...

Bare in mind also that lasers pointers over a certain power, are illegal in the UK and may be seized if found.

That being said, I ordered mine from China, have been more than happy with it and have taken it abroad numerous times with no issues but it would not be a disaster to lose it at the 20 Pounds I paid,
 
Moin!

albatross02 said:
1 milliWatt laser pointer I found

https://www.laserfuchs.de/de/punktl...MI_L_nm4ik3wIVhLTtCh1-nQG9EAAYAyAAEgJDVvD_BwE

working distance is about 10 meters, about 35 feet
Click to expand...

Thanks for the link! Always good to see a source listing the classification of the laser pointer ...

Here's an information sheet on laser safety:

http://lasersafetyfacts.com/laserclasses.html

500 mW laser fall in class 4, which means that they are so powerful that they can cause eye damage even when looking at the diffuse reflection of the beam:

http://lasersafetyfacts.com/4/

The site also notes that one has to expect laser pointers to be deliberately mislabeled to pretend they only have a fraction of the power they actually have. I found this is actually alluded to in slightly veiled form in one of the "100 mW" laser pointer product descriptions from the site Andy linked.

Here some data on hazard distances from the site:

The Nominal Ocular Hazard Distance (NOHD) for a 1000 milliwatt (1 Watt) visible-beam laser with 1 milliradian divergence is 740 ft (225 m).
The NOHD for a 5 Watt laser with a 1 milliradian divergence is 1640 ft (500 m).
Click to expand...

Since that's from an Occupational Health and Safety ("Arbeitssicherheit") context, this addresses the human eye. A bird's eye might differ in vulnerability ... if I had to guess, I'd say that it's probably more vulnerable due to having a much higher density of receptors.

Regards,

Henning
 
Hauksen said:
Moin!



Thanks for the link! Always good to see a source listing the classification of the laser pointer ...

Here's an information sheet on laser safety:

http://lasersafetyfacts.com/laserclasses.html

500 mW laser fall in class 4, which means that they are so powerful that they can cause eye damage even when looking at the diffuse reflection of the beam:

http://lasersafetyfacts.com/4/

The site also notes that one has to expect laser pointers to be deliberately mislabeled to pretend they only have a fraction of the power they actually have. I found this is actually alluded to in slightly veiled form in one of the "100 mW" laser pointer product descriptions from the site Andy linked.

Here some data on hazard distances from the site:



Since that's from an Occupational Health and Safety ("Arbeitssicherheit") context, this addresses the human eye. A bird's eye might differ in vulnerability ... if I had to guess, I'd say that it's probably more vulnerable due to having a much higher density of receptors.

Regards,

Henning
Click to expand...

So how many birders do you know that shine a laser, directly in to the eye of anything?

Apart from idiots that point them at planes, the reason they're banned in the UK, I know not a single birder, that would be stupid enough to aim at a birds eye and surely, standing behind the laser as birders do, it's impossible to get damage to the eye as a user?
 
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Hi Andy,

andyadcock said:
So how many birders do you know that shine a laser, directly in to the eye of anything?

Apart from idiots that point them at planes, the reason they're banned in the UK, I know not a single birder, that would be stupid enough to aim at a birds eye.
Click to expand...

Don't get me wrong - I believe that birders generally are responsible people who go to great lengths to restrict their impact on wildlife to a minimum.

My point is that awareness of the hazards associated with the use of powerful lasers can help to minimize that impact, and if lasers are used, to handle them more safely.

One aspect that should be given special consideration is that the inherent hazards, both for wildlife and for humans, can be minimized by picking the least powerful laser that will get the job done under normal circumstances, instead of the most powerful one that's available within the budget.

Regards,

Henning
 
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