• Welcome to BirdForum, the internet's largest birding community with thousands of members from all over the world. The forums are dedicated to wild birds, birding, binoculars and equipment and all that goes with it.

    Please register for an account to take part in the discussions in the forum, post your pictures in the gallery and more.
ZEISS DTI thermal imaging cameras. For more discoveries at night, and during the day.

scope dilemma! (1 Viewer)

now then.......

after an interesting days testing the scopes at the birdfair, from all different companies such as leica, ziess, swarovski, nikon, opticron and more, i was able to to come to a few conclusions.

firstly, the zeiss 85FL angled version.

very compact for a 85mm scope, and surprisingly light. first tests were with the zoom, that i was after in the first place.

straight away when at 20x mag, the 'soft' edge around the sight picture is obvious, this shouldnt be a factor with todays scopes and this makes the field of view at the lowest mag pretty much pointless. you can only clearly see what is in the middle, and thats a shame.

the zoom itself is easy to use, and not too huge like i have heard about, i found it quite comortable to use. as for the twin focussing wheels, ie rough and fine - these are brilliant. the fine focus alone stands out compared to other scopes apart from the equally brilliant leica focus wheel.

at 30x mag it is still bright and detailed, although after this the field of view collapses right down untill you get to 60x, where the image is still quite detailed and bright, although i wouldnt say any better than the other scopes in good light. however at around 5:30pm we tested the scopes again, and the swarovski and zeiss were noticeably better at full zoom in the poorer light as we watched 2 ospreys scrapping over the tree tops.

we also tested the 30xWW and the 40xWW. the 30x eyepiece - WOW. this was impressive, outstanding clarity, brightness and overall detail. i would say this eyepiece outperforms the same 30x eyepiece from the other companies, it really is superb.

the 40x, although good as it was, wasnt going to be any more helpfull than the 30x. the image you got from various distances is nothing to shout about, so you might as well go for the 30x mag and have the extra brightness and clarity if you are going for a fixed lens.

swarovski ATS 80HD angled version.

this is a good scope, no doubt about it. the sales figures speak for themselves. although a little more expensive than other scopes, they are still pretty reasonable compared to the price of top end binoculars, so are therefore good value for money.

the zoom eye piece is very comortable to use, on par with the leica for my eyes. i felt settled almost straight away when using this scope. the image at 20x is fantastic, with no soft spot like the zeiss zoom at the same mag.

what is also noticeable is the colour clarity using the swaro, the image is great in all the top end scopes, but colour wise, the swaro and leica are superb. exactly what you want when your paying top dollar.

the thing that stood out on the swaro compared with the leica and zeiss, is the focus wheel. this wasnt as good as it could be, as it doesnt have separate fine/rough wheels, you cant get an instant fine image like you can on the other two scopes. this isnt a big problem, it just means you have to spent extra seconds fiddling with the wheel untill the image is right.

at higher mags, the image is still brilliant and i noticed the clarity, once you got the image fine focussed that is, still to be right up there, quality. on the full 60x zoom, you wont notice a big difference over the cheaper scopes, untill you get to a point where the light levels are dropping, and the distances are quite far away. this is when the top scopes come into there own.

the 30x WW eyepiece is like the zeiss version, superb. although i still think the ziess edges it for brightness and detail, the swaro is better colour wise, although not to an extreme.

although this scope doesnt really have any bad points, i still think a fine focus wheel and a price drop would of around £100-200 would really help.

leica APO televid 77 angled version.

this is still a favourite of mine, as i had previously owned one, i know this scope inside out.

yes, it is longer and heavier than most big scopes thesedays, but it is cheaper and image wise is still superb. forget the televid scopes, the APO televid versions are the ones to have.

this scope is a doddle to use, with an exellent twin focus wheel that is on par with the zeiss, and the eyepieces fit your eye perfectly. the zoom model is brilliant.

at 20x mag the image is crisp and the detail isnt lost when you go to the edge of the field of view. the colours are fantastic, as with the swaro, you are stunned when watching birds through this scope. quality.

at higher mags, the image is still very useable even upto the full 60x you cannot really say it is better or poorer than the swaro and zeiss, even at lowlight. the differences are minute. it is down to your own eyes at the end of the day.

nikon field scope82 angled version.

this is the cheapest of the scopes that are worth owning, and i had to include this into the test, as they do produce exellent optics.

i tested the fieldscope 82 with the zoom eyepiece first, and was blown away by the image. i have used the older 78 version before, and was surprised at the image from that, as fro mthe outside they dont look like anything special, but infact they are surpriseingly good. they let there lens do the talking.

the zoom eyepiece however good it is, untill you use the 30xWW, you will soon be thinking this scope was up there with the very best. this lens is outstanding.

i would say the 30x WW lens is one of the best i have viewed through, right there with the zeiss. clarity, brightness and the all important colour definition are superb. if i was to own a nikon, this is the eyepiece i would have.

the scope itself isnt exactly a good looker, rather ugly infact, but you pay for the optics not the looks. the main poor point to this scope, like the swaro, is the focus wheel.

they are the same design, one big wheel with no fine adjustment, but the nikon wheel isnt nice to use. it is just too rough, and lets the scope down, as good as the optics maybe. the previous focus on the 78 was a dream compared to this. the lowest price scope however, you should check this kit out when considering a high end scope.

all in all some great scopes. i would be happy to own either one of them.

really the only thing seperating the top scopes, are the focuss wheels. the extra choice you have with leica and zeiss wheels are superb, and the swaro and nikon are seriously let down, in my view, by there lack of a fine focus wheel.

the swaro and zeiss are the better scopes at top mag, although you are never going to stay on 60x for most of your birding anyway. in that case, the 30x WW come into there own.

if all scopes only had this lens available the zeiss and nikon would be the top sellers easily. they are superb lenses.

so what will i buy then...........

i will still probaly go with the zeiss 85FL.

yes the swaro is a little better colour wise, the zeiss focus wheel and the performance matching 60x mag still swings it for me. plus the £200 i would save buying the zeiss over the swaro, means i can get the truly awesome 30x WW eyepiece for the zeiss thrown in! - result or what.

i would still like to hear your comments etc, so keep them coming in, and i would like to thank all those who have contributed to this thread, cheers.
 
So, if you'd never owned a Leica before, would you have been tempted? I once owned a Canon AE1 camera, which got stolen. It was an excellent camera, but i spent extra on the Canon A1 as a replacement - just because i didn't want to buy exactly the same thing again!
 
rezMole said:
So, if you'd never owned a Leica before, would you have been tempted? I once owned a Canon AE1 camera, which got stolen. It was an excellent camera, but i spent extra on the Canon A1 as a replacement - just because i didn't want to buy exactly the same thing again!

too right.

the leica would of been a serious option even today, as it has amazing optics and the dual focus that i love. only the zeiss being lighter and shorter, and slighty brighter image at dusk swung it for me.
 
RedBishop said:
Salty,
Being back from the BirdFair, I understand no big news from any of the top ends ?
No new Optics to write home about ?

there isnt anything new on the horizon, and there wasnt any special deals to be had!

i will be buying from the internet to save money on my scope.
 
Hi Salty,

Glad you got the chance to test them all and find the one that's right for you. As I think we've all pretty much agreed, none of them are going to disappoint, and the Zeiss is a fantastic scope. I must check out the 30x fixed eyepiece on my 65 some day (I think it works at 23 or 25 on the 65, rather than 30?)

Happy shopping
 
hornet said:
Hi Salty,

Glad you got the chance to test them all and find the one that's right for you. As I think we've all pretty much agreed, none of them are going to disappoint, and the Zeiss is a fantastic scope. I must check out the 30x fixed eyepiece on my 65 some day (I think it works at 23 or 25 on the 65, rather than 30?)

Happy shopping

23x on the 65mm.

a cracking eyepiece, outstanding infact!
 
straight away when at 20x mag, the 'soft' edge around the sight picture is obvious, this shouldn't be a factor with today's scopes and this makes the field of view at the lowest mag pretty much pointless. you can only clearly see what is in the middle, and that's a shame.
Hi Salty,

take it from me mate, that soft at the edges or not, the super-wide Zeiss FOV is completely usable.

Bear in mind that:

a) you only ever really look at the middle of any view from a scope, and the width of the view at low magnification makes finding birds (which is what you'll mainly be doing at low mag) a doddle compared to the best of the rest - and in fact the Zeiss zoom very accurately reflects how your own eyes see the world, in my experience (your own eyes aren't sharp to the edge either!);

b) the way other manufacturers deal with the issue of softness at the edges is simply to provide a narrower FOV in the first place;

c) you'll get used to the softness in no time at all - I simply don't register it with my Zeiss 65.
 
Last edited:
Keith Reeder said:
Hi Salty,

take it from me mate, that soft at the edges or not, the super-wide Zeiss FOV is completely usable.

Bear in mind that:

a) you only ever really look at the middle of any view from a scope, and the width of the view at low magnification makes finding birds (which is what you'll mainly be doing at low mag) a doddle compared to the best of the rest - and in fact the Zeiss zoom very accurately reflects how your own eyes see the world, in my experience (your own eyes aren't sharp to the edge either!);

b) the way other manufacturers deal with the issue of softness at the edges is simply to provide a narrower FOV in the first place;

c) you'll get used to the softness in no time at all - I simply don't register it with my Zeiss 65.

im still getting the zeiss, like you said i have already got used to the soft edge, after a good couple of hours testing at the birdfair i hardly noticed it at the end.
 
As a Zeiss owner and fan, in your otherwise excellent report on the scopes you tried, you were clear about the negative imapct of the soft edges of the Zeiss:

"This shouldn't be a factor with today's scopes and this makes the field of view at the lowest mag pretty much pointless. You can only clearly see what is in the middle, and that's a shame..."

When I read that, I was very surprised at your conclusion. I have looked through a number of Zeiss scopes and even accounting for what is really quite minimal edge softness, the Zeiss zoom has always allowed me to see a good deal more than any other scope currently available. This is a unique aspect of the Zeiss zoom.
 
Last edited:
Excellent hands-on scope trial, Salty! Your conclusions on the scopes were right on and showed that it is a real dilemma to pick a top scope, even for an experienced birder! I use a Swaro 80 HD, but the Zeiss 85 is a great choice--interestingly, it was the center focus ring on the Swaro that made the difference for me. In the end, it really boils down to personal preference! :bounce:
 
Tongue in cheek

As a relative newcomer to BF who is looking to get a newer scope (I have a Kowa TSN-2 with 30xWW eye-piece, and a new found passion for Seawatching), I can say with some degree of truefulness that I now know exactly what to buy !

It will be the new ''ZEISSSWARONIKONLEICA'' with matching 30xWWZOOM ! :eat:
 
I'm coming to this late, having just got back from holiday, but here's my 2p worth...

I've had the Zeiss 85 & zoom for about 8 months, and am delighted with it (upgraded from very reasonable Opticron HR66). If people rubbish it because the edge isn't sharp at 20x, then IMO, they're missing the point - with any other scope, you can't see what's that far from the centre of the image at all! For seawatching etc, where field of view is critical, the much wider image is fantastic - you simply see more birds through it!

I agree with one or two people who note the image has a slightly warm yellowish cast, but I find this more appealing than the over-cold image I got from the Leica I tested.

You still don't see that many Diascopes out there in the field (I'm sure loads of people just buy the Swav because that seems to have been deemed "top scope" by the masses, arguably due to price?), but I reckon the Zeiss is right up at the top of the tree... Wouldn't change mine for anything. Oh, and the amazing deal I got on a mint mail-order return from WarehouseExpress helped quite a bit as well. ;-)
 
salty said:
so what will i buy then...........

i will still probaly go with the zeiss 85FL.

Glad to see that you got the chance to do some extensive testing on all the scopes. the focus system seems to be a big factor for many people when choosing a top end scope - I, like you, prefer the twin focus system of the Leica and Zeiss over the 'big wheel' on the Nikon and Swaro.
For me the soft edges on the Zeiss are a big issue - I know it's a trade off, with the soft edges you get a wider FOV. While I am sure I'd get used to it if I owned one, in extensive testing I found it fairly off putting (but that's just me).
I'd choose the Leica every time - I did when I bought a big scope and now changing to a smaller one I'm going to get a Leica again - for me it's the right scope. If the Leica wasn't out there I'm sure I'd be buying a Zeiss and singing it's praises - and I'm sure within a week I wouldn't be thinging about (or noticing) the soft edges.

I'm sure your going to be very happy with your Zeiss 85FL - let's be honest all the top end scopes are a joy to look through. I look forward to seeing your photos when you start digiscoping with it. I guess the only question left is are you going to get the scope in silver or green...
 
not read any replies but in answer to original question:

both way too heavy for me

nikon ED111 or Kowa 613/614 are fine

recently in Tibet taking any scope on our walks was out of the question due to weight and shortness of oxygen (seriously!). We generally shared one between us...

plus we were birding from dawn to dusk and then weight becomes an issue at any altitude

guess this doesn't help much...! Oh well.

Tim
 
thanks guys!

yep, it was a hard choice between some really superb optics, i dont want to do this again..........

anyway, i have ordered my zeiss 85FL today from warehouse express. i went for the angled version in green, the silver ones are rare enough in the field let alone a green one! - i also went for the 20x-60x zoom to get me on my way, and i also got a favourite tripod of mine thrown in too, the manfrotto 055v with the 701rc2 head, all this came in at £1297, still less than the swaro scope with just the eyepiece!

i took advantage of the pay 10% now and the rest in 9 months, seeing as im still a little skint after buying my car, wich was the reason i sold my beloved APO77 in the first place.

i will purchase the 30x WW when funds permit, and i will be getting the ziess digi cam adaptor to go with the canon A95 that i want.

cant wait till next week when it arrives now!
 
Good choice Salty. I also have the Zeiss 85FL with 20-60x. Mind you, mine is gathering dust at the moment in the corner!
 
Good luck Salty. I checked out all the scopes at the Birdfair and my choice would have been the same as yours.

The Kowa man from Japan told me that Kowa were concerned about the design on the scope body permitting only small tunnel like eyepieces. He intimated that there was a new scope on the way possibly next year to be more like the Lecia, Zeiss and Swarovski. Time will tell. They were also demonstrating a camera adapter which works in a similar way to the Zeiss but fits round the eyepiece not between the scope and tripod. It looked very neat and a lot less clumsy than than the Zeiss or Swarovski adapters.
 
Robert L Jarvis said:
They were also demonstrating a camera adapter which works in a similar way to the Zeiss but fits round the eyepiece not between the scope and tripod. It looked very neat and a lot less clumsy than than the Zeiss or Swarovski adapters.

i thought the zeiss adaptor was exellent, although it could of been less expensive. it works in a better way than the swaro one, as it swings out of the way, rather than flipping over, and hindering your view in front.

as for eye pieces, we were on the nikon stand at the birdfair. rayl was checking out the exellent 30x WW eyepiece, a stunning piece of kit, and the sales rep was talking away like they do, we then asked how much it was to buy, just the eyepiece.

the reply of 'oh, it's about £300 sir......' came with a look of disbelief from me and ray :eek!: , especially as infocus said they were selling them for £169.......experts eh!
 
Warning! This thread is more than 19 years ago old.
It's likely that no further discussion is required, in which case we recommend starting a new thread. If however you feel your response is required you can still do so.

Users who are viewing this thread

Back
Top