Leitz 10x40B or perhaps another vintage pair of bins? (1 Viewer)

Both In Focus and Uttings have Hawke Sapphire EDs at very good prices at the moment, just above your budget. Might be worth a look?

Would like to add I have no connection with either company apart from being a satisfied customer in the past.

Hello and welcome, James. You're not the first person to be seduced by the elegance of old Leitz binoculars. It's not just elegance either, for the other qualities that to many are nearly as important as optics in making a good binocular - compactness, handling, fit and finish - have changed little even though their optics have been superseded. The best binoculars of the '50s and '60s, as you can see, are still sought after today because of those qualities, and because they represent an era of fine craftsmanship that has largely passed away.

The question you need to ask yourself is - what are you prepared to give up optically? The answer is going to be very personal and I strongly urge you to try examples of both before you buy - and, if possible, compare them side by side. 50 years' worth of technological improvements is not to be laughed at, and you may find after looking through even a third-tier modern binocular that what you see when looking through an old one is just not good enough for you.

A few general thoughts:

- The casual user, observing mostly in good weather, may not demand the same standards of sharpness, contrast, and brightness as those trying to make out the faintest stars in some distant galaxy or figuring out the distinguishing features of a tiny brown bird 80 yards away in low light.

- A joint anniversary wedding present is a bit of a different proposition to a car bino - one will (or should) be cherished, while the other is much more of an everyday commodity.

- Porro prism binoculars can offer a lot of bang for your buck, and the finest examples of these are every bit as classic as a Trinovid or Dialyt. Unfortunately not many can be used with glasses/spectacles - important if you need to quickly "get on" elusive targets like birds, but less of an issue when looking at boats and certain other kinds of wildlife (park deer etc).

- Old binoculars may have been extensively used. Some may require a service thanks to haze or fungus; most will likely benefit from it. But competent technicians do exist.

- Regarding magnification (8x or 10x): 8x gives you a steadier image, as every wobble is magnified 8x rather than 10x, and normally a wider field of view. These qualities often more than make up for less magnification. If the binocular is intended to be used by your wife as well as yourself, many women find smaller binoculars (8x30 or 8x32) easier to use.

Good luck in your binocular hunt,

patudo

Hi all,

Thank you so much for all your advice, it really is appreciated and has given me much food for thought.

However, and I hope that I don't frustrate you, I have decided to follow my heart and go for a pair of Leitz Trinovids. The thing is we drive a 30 year old Land Rover, I'm eating my breakfast as I type this from a bowl made in the 30s and spend my life restoring old machines and bringing them back to life (https://www.instagram.com/mabel_and_co/?hl=en so not being modern isn't really much of an issue for me. I think patudo was right, in that I am looking for something "special" as much as everyday and useful, so looks, quality and feel (even down to a nice vintage bag) are just as important.

They will still be the best binoculars we have ever owed and without getting to deep, will be better than 3/5ths of the world could ever hope to own. Likewise it matters to me that they already exist, so not one will have to dig up the planet to make a pair. Presumably the previous owner owned them, used them and still lived a fulfilling life!

However, I am mindful of what people have said about the light levels, so I am wondering if the 8x32 would be a better bet than the 10x40? My wife is a strong girl, so I doubt the extra weight would be a problem.

Many thanks again,

James

you may need to consider storage and the affect of constant and dramatic temperature change if left in a car! vintage balsam (holding lenses and prisms together) will yellow and separate with age exasperated with warm/cold/warm/cold cycles.

when not used i store all my binoculars in air tight boxes with desiccant packs in the most stable temperature i can find down stairs, we live in an old house. the thought of leaving them in a car for any length of time would fill me with dread!

10x40 all things being equal will be just as bright as an 8x32 both will have a 4mm exit pupil. 8x42 would be better/brighter in low/poor light/astronomy with the larger exit pupil

Hi James,
Enjoy the Leitz 10x40.

For astronomy I prefer a 10x40 to an 8x40. Both are fine.
The darkness of the observing site is far more important than the binocular.

Even the nearest galaxies outside our Milky Way probably need a 12 inch aperture binocular or larger to see the brightest stars.
To see the faintest stars in a distant galaxy; these are only visible in our imagination.

P.S.
The Leitz 10x40 may only weigh 580g, which is not heavy. The binocular is also quite small.

Hadn't thought about temperature changes. Thank you Mark. Will give that some though. I suppose in the winter if you are out and about and get them cold, bringing them into a warm house could be worse than leaving them in the truck, where they will remain cool? As we spend 6 months of every year discussing, the Land Rover never gets that warm. I'll definitely put a desiccant pack in there.

Been offered what looks to be a good set for £230 delivered. Seems like a fair price?

James

Binastro said:

The Zeiss Jena Notarem in post 9 seem way overpriced.

There may be two types of Leitz 10x40. Extra wide angle and normal eyepieces, maybe with different eye relief.
I bought mine because of the wide field, but wish I hadn't as it is a poor example.

P.S.
The Nikon Action 10x40 is nearer 10.7x or 10.9x and has minimal eye relief. I would avoid this one.
The Nikon Aculon 10x42 is much better.

The Minolta 7x35 Standard MK measured 11.05 degrees on star separations. I didn't realise it has such a high transmission (87%).
The Minolta Porros have various iterations, not all being EWA.

Thanks Gijs for the transmission detail.

Click to expand...

The Nikon 10x40 has 10mm eye relief which should be sufficient for someone who does not wear glasses. If generous eye relief is important then the o.p. should understand that many vintage bins may not have enough.

Well I went for them and got them for the £230 delivered. Pretty chuffed.

As they came a little less than I had wondered if I might have to pay I wonder if it is worth getting them serviced straight away, so they are ready for the next 40 years?

Any UK suggestions and ideas of cost?

Kind regards,

James

Sorry, should have said, eye relief isn't an issue.

service would likely cost you £80- £120 plus return postage, maybe more if there is an issue, trouble is there isnt anyone left in the uk servicing as far as i know? that id trust with mine
last pair i sent off for service came back worse than i sent them

Hi,

congratulations to your new bins - I hope you like 'em. Please let us know!

Regarding service - with optics - if it ain't broke, don't fix it. Unlike cars or mechanical watches, binoculars don't really need a regular service - there is after all not a lot of movable parts in there and the few found tend to move rarely and slowly.

If you see black dots or spidery stuff on the lenses, you might have fungus - if that's the case you'll want to return the bins immediately if it wasn't declared (and then the price would be way too high).

Joachim

Just under half of the old binoculars I've purchased have needed their optical surfaces cleaned. Older Zeiss West porros can suffer from outgassing - both mine did - and the external focusing mechanism of most porro prism binoculars draws in outside air (in the UK and Western Europe, often damp air, with pollen in it) like a bellows. The result over time is that a kind of haze can form on the lenses and prisms. Your Trinovid, being an internally focusing binocular (if my memory has not failed me) will probably be pretty clean internally, but you'll probably want to look carefully for haze or cloudiness, and also for alignment (collimation). It isn't unheard of for binoculars to be dropped, which all too often results in the internals going out of whack. It's also a good idea to check the key mechanicals such as the focus and diopter controls and the central hinge to make sure everything functions as it should. If there is any roughness or excessive play when turning the focus or diopter wheels, if either focus or diopter are not operational, or if the hinge is too stiff (or indeed too floppy), I would send it in. Many binoculars of that vintage have never been serviced since they left the factory - and despite that, some of the ones that came to me were (to my surprise) still perfect, or very close to it - but 40 or 50 years is a very long time for anything mechanical to go without servicing.

P.S. JamesJ, I've noted the shop I send mine to in a private message.

Hi Roadbike,
Post 27.

I just tried the Nikon 10x40 Action again.
There is sufficient eye relief for me if I get the two images exactly central and also the binocular at the correct angle up/down.
The problem is using it for astronomy, as one often has a binocular at a slight angle. Ones head must be tilted at the correct angle.
I don't use glasses with binoculars.
There are small rubber eyecups. Someone with a small IPD might find them difficult.
If I push the eyecups down there is a little space on axis, but the eye position is fairly critical to see the whole field of view.

2010 January. New. Little flare, little ghosting.
Almost distortion free eyepieces.
Some astigmatism centrally on stars.
But Good binocular
Well aligned.
Eye relief O.K.

Good.

Specs given. Eye relief 10.5mm, field 6.0 degrees. 2009 April.

I find that the Aculon 10x42 is better and more user friendly.

Even at a modest elevation of 25 to 30 degrees in a clear sky it is difficult for me to see the whole field of the Nikon 10x40 without pushing the binocular against my eyes.

The Soviet/Russian 12x40, in both eyepiece variants, presents similar difficulties. But it has a 6.0 degree field, 72 degree simple AFOV, compared to 60 degrees simple AFOV with the Nikon 10x40.
The Minolta 10x50 Standard MK is more comfortable than either at 7.65 degree field, although difficult at 7.8 degree full field. I.e. 76.5 to 78 degree simple AFOV.

So the Nikon, which doesn't have EWA eyepieces, is struggling when it shouldn't.

Comparing the Trinovid 10x40 122m at 1000m with the Nikon 10x40.
The Orion nebula is brighter in the Nikon.
The Trinovid has some haze on the prisms, but even if cleaned by an expert, I think the Nikon might be brighter.
The Trinovid 7.0 degree field is easier to see than the 6.0 degree Nikon field.

The Trinovid is much smaller, probably less than 2/3 the size of the Nikon.

In bright sunshine the Nikon has some CA in the left barrel but not in the right barrel in this sample.
The Trinovid 122m at 1000m has a much wider field than the Nikon.
The Nikon 10x40 tends to tunnel vision unless one is very careful with eye placement.

Hi all,

The seller has been in touch and he contacted Leica in London and was told a general service would be complimentary, is that right?

James

James,
It depends.
Sometimes there was a 30 year warranty.
Sometimes Leica have done things F.O.C.
Sometimes not.

Anyway, Leica is probably the place to go for any servicing.

I don't know when my poor condition 10x40 wide angle Trinovid 10x40 was made, or whether Leica would take it apart and clean it.
They may not have parts.

P.S.
Apparently the wide angle 10x40 Trinovids were made from 1963 to 1975.
It may not need spare parts, but if it does they may not be available.

Somebody had a faulty Leica M8 digital camera and in less than two years from new, the £4,000 camera was worthless, as there were no parts to repair it.

Old mechanical Leica items are different.

For the Royal Household Leica kept several new Leica M3s to supply spare parts to repair the much used and loved M3s.

Will Leica remove any fungus from the internals, I know Zeiss USA will not, curious.

Andy W.

dries1 said:

Will Leica remove any fungus from the internals, I know Zeiss USA will not, curious.

Andy W.

Click to expand...

Can it be removed effectively? I heard it etches the glass.

Bob

It depends on the glass type, the fungus type and length of time in moisture and the extent of moisture, i.e relative humidity. Also the temperature.
Also the coating type.

Some fungus can be just surface fungus without etching. Sometimes etching can creep around lens edges onto the other surface.

Zeiss will not repair lenses with fungus, and probably not binoculars.
However, they did an excellent job on the old Zeiss 15x60. The fungus had not etched the glass, which probably was not an exotic type.
I noticed on its return, almost immediately, that an eyepiece element had a blackened edge chip. The binocular was obviously stripped completely and the lens element chipped.
The edge chip has no effect on the image.
It was an expert repair in house.

I had some Wild lenses professionally stripped and cleaned. Here there was some chipping also.
However, I think that the reassembled lenses were not giving the resolution of a new lens.
Nowadays I know of nobody in the U.K. to do this type of work, and even normal binocular top class work is difficult.

Nowadays I don't throw good money after bad, and just let faulty binoculars be.
They are only objects.

In Hong Kong they used to routinely strip lenses for cleaning including fungus. I don't know if they still do.
Movie lenses are I think stripped regularly.
TTH lenses were made with disassembly in mind as routine.

Although firms like Leica and Zeiss do not deal with fungus, they may make exceptions.

Someone like Jason Adams with Leica lenses, or Horace Dall with any optics would easily deal with fungus etc. by refiguring the lens including aspherising. Horace Dall would just recompute the lens curves needed or do it by eye with continual star tests.
It probably was better than when it was new.

The engineer to service any old Leitz roof prism is Gary at East Coast binocular repairs in Norfolk. He wrote a book on them about 12-15 years ago whilst working at Leica, Milton Keynes.
Now self employed, he also has a great history of Zeiss roof prisms and serviced my Zeiss 7 x 42 BGAT*P* some years ago.
My Leitz ( Black square Wetzlar ) 10 x 40 still cut the mustard but hardly come out of the box these days.

Enjoy your bins, keep them warm and dry and they won't let you down.

P