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Manu Expeditions, Cusco, Peru (1 Viewer)

See my point one, when I see the 'it's a short season' justification for silly prices, it does leave a bitter taste. Can you imagine another business model which applies the principal of charging double on the basis that they have the rest of the year off, tell that to strawberry pickers. Agree with the rest of this point.
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This is why it's always better to use locals, cut out the middle class European or American who takes his slice off the top and pay the locals direct. It always bemuses me that when a European or other person from a developed country, sets up a business such as this in the undeveloped World, they always charge as if they're still in London or Clalifornia, costs never have any resemblance at all to the local cost of living, hence the silly prices.


Comparing birding guides to strawberry pickers... No insults to strawberry pickers, but bird guiding is a whole different league and level in terms of knowledge, experience, maturity, responsability. If a tour goes smooth it sometimes looks like a walk in the park, but if a tour experiences unforeseen problems, a good guide (and company) really shines.

Without wanting to sound like a colonialist: the Western travel business and bird tour business (especially the British) has existed and matured for a much longer time than any of the local tour companies. Some of the local companies now offer the same level or even a better level (and for some, a more authentic experience). And because they have less travel cost and no westerners involved with higher salaries, also better prices. But again, once these companies mature, they will also increase their prices. You local cheap guide / company / ... will see that, once they are in business longer, their business model is not sustainable if they don't increase quality and investments, and with increased demand, they will increase their prices.

Still, not all clients can / want to communicate / transfer money to a company overseas, so some will stick to the security (insurance, physical presence nearby, potential bankruptcy/scam of the overseas agency, preferring to travel with a certain guide or a guide who speaks your native language and who travels from start to end with you...) of their thrusted travel / bird tour agency. You make it sound like some of your personal opinions are facts, while it's a matter of taste / preference / weighing the pros and cons.

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regarding the Manu Expeditions policy:
I wouldn't book a tour with a 600 dollar non-refundable deposit, but if the contracts states it, I wouldn't bother if I am not getting it back. I decided not to fly on the 13th of March while there was still no official travel advice against flying, so I just didn't show up for a flight (and so decided to miss out on >1200 euro on booked flights and accomodations). I got almost everything back as vouchers or money, and I am happy ofcourse. But if that didn't happen, I wouldn't think about it for a second. It was a risk I was willing to take when booking. So the central question is: was there a clear contract, and if that contract is respected, there is simply no case. If not, the opening posted should explain his case much, much better, because without the details, throwing it in public is a waste of time. If you have a good case, show it.

@ Jim: I agree that it would be better not to share content of emails publicly. On the other hand, I guess Barry has had it. After decades of guiding and doing business, the fact his business stops will play a role in giving up on being nice to potential clients, or doing the right PR for future clients. I guess the trust is breached the moment someone calls you (insert everything that would be censored) in an email.
 
Comparing birding guides to strawberry pickers... No insults to strawberry pickers, but bird guiding is a whole different league and level in terms of knowledge, experience, maturity, responsability. If a tour goes smooth it sometimes looks like a walk in the park, but if a tour experiences unforeseen problems, a good guide (and company) really shines.

A complete misinterpretation of the comparison which was based purely on the seasonal nature of the work where the short birding window, is often quoted as the reason for high prices.
 
Still, not all clients can / want to communicate / transfer money to a company overseas, so some will stick to the security (insurance, physical presence nearby, potential bankruptcy/scam of the overseas agency, preferring to travel with a certain guide or a guide who speaks your native language and who travels from start to end with you...) of their thrusted travel / bird tour agency. You make it sound like some of your personal opinions are facts, while it's a matter of taste / preference / weighing the pros and cons.

Which ones?
 
A complete misinterpretation of the comparison which was based purely on the seasonal nature of the work where the short birding window, is often quoted as the reason for high prices.

No it isn't a misinterpretation. Strawberry pecking (I actually did peres and apples for a few weeks so I am talking from experience) is low-paid because you have a large pool of people (these days Easter Europeans) willing to do the work for a low wage. So the wage won't increase as long as you have enough workers in the pool.

It doesn't work like that for bird tours: you don't have an infinite pool of bird guides (or more specific: tour companies that have a proven track record organising trips) for most regions in the world, so the price setting doesn't depend on the competition, it's a seller's market.

Besides, the short birding window in e.g. Madagascar drives up prices, because everybody wants the best guides and best located lodges.
 
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"This is why it's always better to use locals..."

You could say: this is why I feel it's always better...

But you didn't, no?

So it's one opinion not 'some' - I didn't what?

I used that phrase, in relation to benefiting the local economy with the potential affect of helping local wildlife. Where local guides are used, it''s proven to help protect the wildlife that brings them income.

I always use local guides wherever possible and in over twenty years, have only done two, fully guided / escorted tours. That was because my partner at the time, was working for a tour company and I got a good deal.

The bottom line is that the tour companies probably quadruple the cost of a trip, it's up to you if you want to pay it of course. The general guide that is often provided by the company is usually a bit redundant as they always have a local guide as well and it is they, that bring the real expertise required to find the local birds. Europeans and Americans are a bit spoiled, they like to have someone who speaks like they do, who the can run to when they run out of towels in the night ;)
 
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So it's one opinion not 'some' - I didn't what?

Well, I reckon you just did it again!

I will rephrase for you:
So I think it's one opinion not 'some'.

Here is another one:
"not easy to do a cheap trip anymore"
I gently don't agree. Cheaper flights, more information, guest houses can be booked on the internet that previously weren't even known. You can organize way more efficiently (and thus cheaper for the same areas / number of birds). Organising things is way easier than it once was. If you are talking about prices for local guides, I am sorry but I almost never use them, so for me personally, I am not bothered by increases in guiding fees.


I didn't what?
Formulate your reply as an opinion, rather than a fact. If it was meant to be factual, it's not presented with (good enough) arguments.
The internet is black-and-white and doesn't handle subtilities very well.
 
Well, I reckon you just did it again!

I will rephrase for you:
So I think it's one opinion not 'some'.

Here is another one:

I gently don't agree. Cheaper flights, more information, guest houses can be booked on the internet that previously weren't even known. You can organize way more efficiently (and thus cheaper for the same areas / number of birds). Organising things is way easier than it once was. If you are talking about prices for local guides, I am sorry but I almost never use them, so for me personally, I am not bothered by increases in guiding fees.



Formulate your reply as an opinion, rather than a fact. If it was meant to be factual, it's not presented with (good enough) arguments.
The internet is black-and-white and doesn't handle subtilities very well.

You win, I really don't care now.
 
Hi everyone.

Glad that Barry got to present his version too.

The topic of the OP has diverted to pricing, policies, and whether organized birding tours are worth the money or not. Please forgive me for expanding on this.

It is of course now, easier than ever to set up a birding trip on your own from information from trip reports, eBird, Facebook friends, and queries here on BF.

This calls for innovation from the birdwatching companies. I have given a lot of thought about how to innovate birding tours giving better value for money, and also thinking about what services can be subtracted to give the birder, who wants to spend less, more choice.

In this pandemic and without any trips to run, I have also had more time to formulate these thoughts into webinars. Although these deal with Peru and the strategies we have employed, they are general suggestions that other tour operators can look into to provide better value tours for different segments of birding style and economic resources.

Have a look! Click these links.

The first webinar is called Birding Peru Anytime about short tours that suit every kind of birder, regardless of experience, and especially those who do not have a lot of time.

The second webinar deals with Tiered Pricing - how trips longer than 2 weeks can be had for less money, through a choice of comfort level and services.
 
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Without going into whether it is preferable to self-find / hire local guides / join an organised local / western tour company, there is a basic point of business ethics here, and one which Andy, opisska and Jim M I feel have effectively nailed.

If I pay $600.00 non-refundable deposit and decide not to travel for whatever personal reason, it is clearly my problem and would not expect the service provider to refund that.

However, in these circumstances the service provider was unable to provide the service, and I would expect all my money to be repaid. It is not my concern whether they have managed to get any monies back from their service providers.

I run a small consultancy business myself, and this sort of 'pay when paid' stuff makes me spit. If we take on sub-consultants, they provide a service to us, and for whatever reason we weren't able to recoup their costs from our clients, it is our problem - they would still get paid. Although this attitude may not make me rich, it does help me sleep at night.

Mr. Walker, from responses on here from those who've met you, you seem to be a great bloke, an excellent birder, and have many satisfied clients. I am sure some clients fall into the 'difficult' category, and I admire the fact that people providing tourist services can handle such people with equanimity - I certainly couldn't cope with such a customer-facing role myself. However, in this case you are morally wrong to withhold customer's deposits, irrespective of whether they expect them to be repaid or not. It is your problem if you are unable to secure monies already paid to lodges, or do not have adequate insurance to recoup losses, not your customers.
 
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1. Manu expeditions did not cancel any trip in April 2020 - the country closed its frontiers on March 28th and all international flights were cancelled so this 6 person tour could not run - note not cancelled by Manu Expeditions but impossible to run due to the pandemic.

2. On booking a tour with Manu Expeditions our standard payment request is
"To assure your space we require a non-refundable deposit of $600USD per person and the balance 45 days before departure (or if less than 45 days before departure or if it’s convenient – the full amount)."

3. Due to the circumstances ( although this was not our obligation) we recouped what we could from lodges etc in Manu ( some would not refund) and returned all monies paid except the $600 non refundable deposit which did not cover all our losses. As stated to guests " As a travel company we are finding it increasingly unlikely that we will be able to provide tour services as planned in Peru, this uncertainty forces us to cancel all operational services in 2020.". 5 of the 6 guests thanked us for our effort in recouping what we could minus the $600 deposit and were grateful as they were not expecting a refund.

As has been pointed out previously on this thread, the non-refundable deposit is a red-herring here, and it seems strange that Manu Expeditions is proffering as the reason for withholding $600 dollars. It may or may not be the case that the company was legally entitled to withhold some of even all of the tour price, but not under the provisions of its terms relating to non-refundable deposit. These terms refer specifically to cancellation by a customer, which did not happen.

Barry’s statements #1 and #3 are contradictory. He specifically states that the company did not cancel any tours in April 2020, but goes on to state that “we are finding it increasingly unlikely that we will be able to provide tour services as planned in Peru, this uncertainty forces us to cancel all operational services in 2020.”

This does raise the fairly obvious question as to why Manu Expeditions did not explicitly cancel this particular tour. Why, as a tour operator, would you not cancel a tour that is “impossible to run”? Barry refers to the fact that Peru closed its frontiers on March 28th, and that all international flights were cancelled, as being the reason this tour could not run. The obvious implication being that Manu Expeditions was ready, willing and able to run the tour if the clients had been able to turn up for the scheduled start of the tour.

As far as I can see, the Peruvian government introduced complete internal travel bans on March 15th, and a curfew a couple of days later. It is therefore clear that even if tour participants were in Peru for the start of the tour, there is simply no way Manu Expeditions could have operated it.

If being unable to operate a tour is not grounds for cancellation, then what is?
 
Maybe I speak before my turn, but I read it like this:
1. the contested April trip did go (theoretically), but didn't go because customers didn't get there and there was a lockdown, not because it was cancelled by Manu expeditions, but because government restricted the practical organisation of both the tour and customers getting into the country.

2.Because tours cannot go in practice, Manu decided to cancel all further tours in 2020.

So the April tour was in the middle of the restrictions but not formally cancelled. And I know for sure Barry paid more than 600 upfront for all kinds of services, many with non-refundable booking fees. And because he operates in Peru, probably many of these bookings are non-retrievable or insurable, so he probably put clearly on the website that he cannot guarantee that any money paid will be paid back if for certain reasons beyond the powers of Manu expeditions, the tour (or part of it) cannot go. If you don't do that, you can get broke in a country like Peru from one failed tour.

Customers know that, Barry tried to recoup as much money as possible and most agreed on postponing the tour. I have much more money on flight vouchers etc. than 600, in the (sometimes naive) hope that those airline companies aren't going broke between this and the end of 2021. That's a risk I know I was taking when booking flights (I have booked before with an airline company that went broke soon after booking) and if are not willing to take that risk, book with a company that will get all of your money back in times of pandemics.

I am curious which ones would would get back all of your money, actually.
 
However, in these circumstances the service provider was unable to provide the service, and I would expect all my money to be repaid.

you assume the service provider was unable to provide the service, but I assume the customer was unable to get there where the service would be provided, and the service provider was willing to provide, but just couldn't because of force majeure.
 
Maybe I speak before my turn, but I read it like this:
1. the contested April trip did go (theoretically), but didn't go because customers didn't get there and there was a lockdown, not because it was cancelled by Manu expeditions, but because government restricted the practical organisation of both the tour and customers getting into the country.

2.Because tours cannot go in practice, Manu decided to cancel all further tours in 2020.

So the April tour was in the middle of the restrictions but not formally cancelled. And I know for sure Barry paid more than 600 upfront for all kinds of services, many with non-refundable booking fees. And because he operates in Peru, probably many of these bookings are non-retrievable or insurable, so he probably put clearly on the website that he cannot guarantee that any money paid will be paid back if for certain reasons beyond the powers of Manu expeditions, the tour (or part of it) cannot go. If you don't do that, you can get broke in a country like Peru from one failed tour.

Customers know that, Barry tried to recoup as much money as possible and most agreed on postponing the tour. I have much more money on flight vouchers etc. than 600, in the (sometimes naive) hope that those airline companies aren't going broke between this and the end of 2021. That's a risk I know I was taking when booking flights (I have booked before with an airline company that went broke soon after booking) and if are not willing to take that risk, book with a company that will get all of your money back in times of pandemics.

I am curious which ones would would get back all of your money, actually.

If the contractual terms and conditions Manu Expeditions had in place at the time of booking allowed them to cancel a tour due to force majeure, and retain money paid by clients, then why not just cite that as the reason? Why claim you are doing so under the provisions of the non-refundable deposit terms which very clearly do not apply?!

I think hypothetical constructs about tours theoretically going but not actually going are a little bit of a stretch! The tour could not operate because Peru was in lock down, and ME should, in my view, have cancelled the tour. Clearly force majeure was the reason, and if this allowed ME to withhold money to cover their out of pocket expenses under their T&Cs, fine, otherwise they should reimburse in full.

I once had an operator cancel a trip on me because a cyclone allegedly prevented the boat from travelling to the departure point. He cited force majeure and offered us the option of deferring the trip for a year. I declined and asked for a refund, which he refused, claiming that he wasn't required to do so because it was force majeure. His T&Cs simply stated that if he cancelled, clients would be refunded in full. No mention of force majeure. I took legal action and got a full refund.
 
If the contractual terms and conditions Manu Expeditions had in place at the time of booking allowed them to cancel a tour due to force majeure, and retain money paid by clients, then why not just cite that as the reason? Why claim you are doing so under the provisions of the non-refundable deposit terms which very clearly do not apply?!

You’ll have to ask Barry :)
I agree it is a stretch, and there is ofcourse the question of it is the right thing to do even if it is technically within the T/C and within the law. As I understand, Peru was in full lockdown in April So ME couldn’t put the blame only on the customers not showing up; they could never run a tour in any case. Again, Barry should respond if he wants to.
 
Regarding the ME situation, I commented previously that BW may not have acted in the way he did, if he had intended to continue trading, it's a bit shabby to be honest, he knows that there are absolutely no consequences that can follow.

I have a mate who paid for flights etc on the basis of an agreement with a local, part time guide who subsequently cancelled. It wasn't possible to organise a replacement guide at this destination with the time remaining so the flights were forfeited as there was no point him travelling.

It seems that the guide, after taking my mates booking, obtained a better paying gig with a tour group.
 
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