Norfolk mammals (1 Viewer)

I haven't even noticed many flat ones on the road.

Hi there,

I had a "flat" in a grass verge in bowthorpe the other day, although it was more of a "mowed" as I think one of the council's infernal verge cutters had hit it. 2 last year in my garden, none this year. We all know hedgehogs are declining, maybe we are now beginning to see it.

Also, thinking earlier today about bats and a few of the rarer rodents. Not quite sure how to go about seeing some of Norfolk's bats, and Im clueless when I do see one, so if any one can suggest some information on bat groups/walks I would greatly appreciate it. Or individuals who would be happy/interested to see some of our smaller mammals please get in touch and maybe we can get a few people together to see them!

KR

ChrisBish said:

At the risk of boring people, disturbed the otter again last night at 1.45am, about 45mins after this photo was taken (the otter is looking into the pond). Not sure how many fish I have left!!!

Chris

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Probably not too many judging by the frequency of visits to your garden. I saw one last week again on the river adjacent to Costessey pits. It was fishing for 10 minutes about 12ft away and was a total pleasure to watch.

Mike

Otter

My mate had a Otter crossing the road at Old Costessey mill last week

Still at least one Hedgehog visiting my garden...

dendroica said:

Probably not too many judging by the frequency of visits to your garden. I saw one last week again on the river adjacent to Costessey pits. It was fishing for 10 minutes about 12ft away and was a total pleasure to watch.

Mike

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It would probably be more regular if I provided bigger fish and didn't keep disturbing it!!! Would like to catch up with one in the daytime tho. Text me if you get lucky again!

Chris

Impressive beast!
Mothing in the Brecks during the week and stumbled across this accompanied by two other stags trying to find some shade.

Mick

Johny121 said:

I haven't even noticed many flat ones on the road.

Hi there,

I had a "flat" in a grass verge in bowthorpe the other day, although it was more of a "mowed" as I think one of the council's infernal verge cutters had hit it. 2 last year in my garden, none this year. We all know hedgehogs are declining, maybe we are now beginning to see it.

Also, thinking earlier today about bats and a few of the rarer rodents. Not quite sure how to go about seeing some of Norfolk's bats, and Im clueless when I do see one, so if any one can suggest some information on bat groups/walks I would greatly appreciate it. Or individuals who would be happy/interested to see some of our smaller mammals please get in touch and maybe we can get a few people together to see them!

KR

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Hi Johny,

Bats are not the easiest of our Mammal groups to 'see', for obvious reasons. However, now is a good time to get a look at some of species which emerge a little earlier.

Last night, I conducted the first of 2 NBMP surveys at a repeat site, the Dussindale estate and recreation grounds in Thorpe St. Andrew. I recorded 15 Noctule passes, most of these involved well seen individuals (sometimes 2 together). The first was seen around 9.35pm, and as a rule any large Bat commuting or hunting over open ground at dusk in Summer is probably a Noctule. The edges of the recreation ground and cricket pitches were particularly good spots. The 2 expected Pipistrelle species were also recorded. I have more surveys to complete this Summer, and whilst I cannot guarantee anything rare (and my experience is relatively limited compared to some) you are welcome to join me.

Both the Norfolk Barbastelle Study Group and the Norwich Bat Group welcome new members and volunteers. Have a look at their websites; the Norwich Group should have a walk coming up towards the end of this month, although nothing confirmed as yet. Both the RSPB and NWT organise guided walks specifically for Bats and Moths; I'll plug the RSPB ones I am helping with nearer the time!

Last Winter, through the Norwich Bat Group, I was able to observe Natterer's, Daubenton's and Brown Long-eared at a hibernation site. This was a fantastic learning experience and one which I would highly recommend if you are interested in actually seeing our nocturnal residents. It is a popular event, so members only. Only £5.00 for a year, worth it just for that!

I would be interested in other member's experiences with our other small mammals. I would personally like to see Water Shrew and Yellow-necked Mouse. I imagine a Longworth trap is how most folk get to see them.

Mammals are not easy, you do have to put the time in. Membership of local groups cetainly heightens your chance of connecting. The NNS also offer some excellent walks and workshops worth investigating.

Cheers,
Jim.

Small Mammals and Bats

jimbob said:

I would be interested in other member's experiences with our other small mammals. I would personally like to see Water Shrew and Yellow-necked Mouse. I imagine a Longworth trap is how most folk get to see them.

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Hi Johny and Jim,

Dont' know if the following information is of use.

Both Water Shrew and Yellow Necked Mouse occur at the Ted Ellis Nature Reserve (Wheat Fen). They are running a "Meet the Small Mammals" workshop in September so there is a chance of seeing both species there. The cost is £10. Details at wheatfen.org. Was thinking of going myself if I get the time.

Your observations about Noctule Bats occurring in the Thorpe/Dussindale area are interesting Jim. I live nearby and often see Noctule Bats whilst it is still light.

Just to add to what Jim has said (and please correct me If I am wrong Jim or any other bat experts), I understand the most commonly recorded Bats in the Broadland area are the Pippistrelle species, Noctule, Brown Long Eared, Daubentons and Natterer's.

The following pointers may help but as I am sure you are already aware the most reliable way to confirm ID is with a bat detector.
Bats seen in towns and near houses tend to be Pippistrelle. They have an erratic flight with many twists and turns and often fly relatively low down and near the observer.
Noctule Bats have a distinctive flight style. Flying at around tree top height (often out in the open) in a relatively straight line, dipping down sharply to catch insects and then back up again to continue.
Brown Long Eared Bats have long ears (sorry I am stating the obvious) but usually come out when it is too dark to see them and can be difficult to pick up on the Bat detector as well.
Daubentons bats fly very low over the water to catch insect prey. If seen well they have a pale stomach. I have seen Daubentons whilst it still light although they usually come out when it is dark. Bridges near street lamps in suitable habitat offer good viewing opportunities. People previously have mentioned Dolphin Bridge and the bridges at Trowse.
Natterer's I do not have any experience with but understand they come out after dark and are difficult to pick up on a bat detector.

Cheers

Steve

Bittern2010 said:

Hi Johny and Jim,

Dont' know if the following information is of use.

Both Water Shrew and Yellow Necked Mouse occur at the Ted Ellis Nature Reserve (Wheat Fen). They are running a "Meet the Small Mammals" workshop in September so there is a chance of seeing both species there. The cost is £10. Details at wheatfen.org. Was thinking of going myself if I get the time.

Your observations about Noctule Bats occurring in the Thorpe/Dussindale area are interesting Jim. I live nearby and often see Noctule Bats whilst it is still light.

Just to add to what Jim has said (and please correct me If I am wrong Jim or any other bat experts), I understand the most commonly recorded Bats in the Broadland area are the Pippistrelle species, Noctule, Brown Long Eared, Daubentons and Natterer's.

The following pointers may help but as I am sure you are already aware the most reliable way to confirm ID is with a bat detector.
Bats seen in towns and near houses tend to be Pippistrelle. They have an erratic flight with many twists and turns and often fly relatively low down and near the observer.
Noctule Bats have a distinctive flight style. Flying at around tree top height (often out in the open) in a relatively straight line, dipping down sharply to catch insects and then back up again to continue.
Brown Long Eared Bats have long ears (sorry I am stating the obvious) but usually come out when it is too dark to see them and can be difficult to pick up on the Bat detector as well.
Daubentons bats fly very low over the water to catch insect prey. If seen well they have a pale stomach. I have seen Daubentons whilst it still light although they usually come out when it is dark. Bridges near street lamps in suitable habitat offer good viewing opportunities. People previously have mentioned Dolphin Bridge and the bridges at Trowse.
Natterer's I do not have any experience with but understand they come out after dark and are difficult to pick up on a bat detector.

Cheers

Steve

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Thanks for that Steve.
The Wheatfen event sounds ideal (thanks for the reminder) and I can now remember why I didn't book straight away; birthday weekend! But no doubt this would be well worth it.

Some helpful Bat info there too. To add to what Steve has already said, of the 2 Pipistrelle species commonly encountered, Soprano I find tend to be more closely associated with water. The rarer species, Nathusius's Pip, is (believed) to be a rare Bat, and whilst is no doubt a vagrant I would imagine there are small pockets of breeding colonies in the broads. Certainly a Broadland specialist this one. Barbastelle goes under-recorded and is not as rare as people think; my recent surveys with the NBSG have turned up Barbastelle at every site visited so far. Although I did not see one, they were picked up on the recorder. The well known breeding site in east norfolk would offer the best chance of seeing individuals, post-maternity roost dispersion.

Other than the aforementioned less common Bats, I would be keen to know if any members have encountered Serotine or Leisler's. I saw Leisler's in the hand when the Suffolk Bat Group checked the boxes in Thetford forest, many years ago. No idea if either species have been recorded in the broads recently. Myotis species are notoriously difficult to separate and I would expect both Whiskered and Brandt's to go both under-recorded and unidentified because of this. One way of separating the latter pair is by inspecting the penis of the males. Imagine finding a field sketch book of that. You may forgive the finder of suspecting fowl play.

To finish with (for now) I have heard that detectors have picked up what may be Alcathoe's in the broads not too far from Surlingham. This is a potentially exciting discovery, and would be I think the second confirmed occurance if confirmed. Article here about the 2010 discovery: http://www.leeds.ac.uk/news/article/786/bat_species_discovered_for_the_first_time_in_uk

This last point proves there is so much we don't know about these enigmatic creatures. Get out there, get involved. You might just accidentally record a first for Britain.

Cheers,
Jim.

Mammals

Hi there Jim and Steve,

Thank you both for your replies.

Jim- I was going to do some bat surveying myself near Colton and the Yare valley but I was abroad and missed out on getting a detector in time. I am off again for 2 months at the end of July but if you are doing any surveys before the end of the month I would gladly help and it would be great to observe.

Thank you for the information, that is certainly something to consider for a fiver, it would certainly be a good experience to observe them in hibernation roost sites! I will keep you posted as to if I join when I am back in October.

I have seen a dead water shrew at UEA broad when I studied there a couple of years ago, I would like to see a more animate specimen too. YNmouse would also be interesting. I am guessing that the use of a trap is a license only job? Otherwise I might invest in one and if a couple are interested we could put them down in some good habitat.

Steve- Thanks for your information, I am away in September but good luck to you if you go, it is certainly something I would have gone along to if I was here. Thanks also for your pointers on bats, very helpful.
If money was no object Id buy a detector and a trap for my 2 months in the Pyrenees.. but alas it is.

If anyone else is interested, we could possibly do some "meet ups" to try and see Norfolk's more secretive mammals.

KR

Johny

Johny121 said:

Hi there Jim and Steve,

Thank you both for your replies.

Jim- I was going to do some bat surveying myself near Colton and the Yare valley but I was abroad and missed out on getting a detector in time. I am off again for 2 months at the end of July but if you are doing any surveys before the end of the month I would gladly help and it would be great to observe.

Thank you for the information, that is certainly something to consider for a fiver, it would certainly be a good experience to observe them in hibernation roost sites! I will keep you posted as to if I join when I am back in October.

I have seen a dead water shrew at UEA broad when I studied there a couple of years ago, I would like to see a more animate specimen too. YNmouse would also be interesting. I am guessing that the use of a trap is a license only job? Otherwise I might invest in one and if a couple are interested we could put them down in some good habitat.

Steve- Thanks for your information, I am away in September but good luck to you if you go, it is certainly something I would have gone along to if I was here. Thanks also for your pointers on bats, very helpful.
If money was no object Id buy a detector and a trap for my 2 months in the Pyrenees.. but alas it is.

If anyone else is interested, we could possibly do some "meet ups" to try and see Norfolk's more secretive mammals.

KR

Johny

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Nice to see plenty of interest in Norfolk's mammals. A few thoughts as a result from my own mammal watching experiences:

Bat hibernacula checks are indeed a fascinating experience and thoroughly recommended. Most local bat groups will take you along and all you need is a torch. Natterer's and Daubenton's are the commonest bats encountered, followed by Brown long-eared. I have also seen a number of Whiskered/ Brandt's/ Alcathoe but they can only be identified to spp with certainty when examined in the hand (ie not during a hibernaculum check).

This might be the third discovery of alcathoe bat but they have certainly been found in Sussex since the first discovery in Yorkshire. They're probably more widespread than is realised.

As for mammal trapping you only need a license if targetting shrews (and this can easily be printed off the English Nature website!) I don't think you'd need one for mice but you might need permission if trapping on a nature reserve. Yellow-necked frequently enter houses and I've had them in mine before - if you know of someone who has a house backing onto woodland and who get mice in the loft, they might let you set some traps. I'd say this gives you a better chance than random trapping outdoors.

Longworth traps are great but they cost about £55 each. For a cheaper alternative (£15) that folds away flat try a sherman trap - I've caught plenty with the latter, and they can be taken away on holiday too without taking up much space.

cheers
James

Has anybody here managed to find a Harvest Mouse in the wild? They are still on my wish list. When I was visiting Sculthorpe Moor last year there was a 'mouse-arium' containing some in the reception and they really are delightful little creatures.

Ron

NoSpringChicken said:

Has anybody here managed to find a Harvest Mouse in the wild? They are still on my wish list. When I was visiting Sculthorpe Moor last year there was a 'mouse-arium' containing some in the reception and they really are delightful little creatures.

Ron

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Swallow Aquatics in East Harling have Harvest Mice for sale! They are very cute and I'd love to see a wild one at some point too!

NoSpringChicken said:

Has anybody here managed to find a Harvest Mouse in the wild? They are still on my wish list. When I was visiting Sculthorpe Moor last year there was a 'mouse-arium' containing some in the reception and they really are delightful little creatures.

Ron

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There was a regular one showing from a hide at Sculthorpe Moor last year. The best way to see them is at trapping events - there used to be one in Herts but it doen't run now. I have friends who've seen them 'in the field' and BF's own Mark Hows has a cat that brought one in to him the other day!

They're occasionally seen during spring tide surges such as the one at Parkgate. Also at Rainham on occasion.

James

Jhanlon said:

Nice to see plenty of interest in Norfolk's mammals. A few thoughts as a result from my own mammal watching experiences:

Bat hibernacula checks are indeed a fascinating experience and thoroughly recommended. Most local bat groups will take you along and all you need is a torch. Natterer's and Daubenton's are the commonest bats encountered, followed by Brown long-eared. I have also seen a number of Whiskered/ Brandt's/ Alcathoe but they can only be identified to spp with certainty when examined in the hand (ie not during a hibernaculum check).

This might be the third discovery of alcathoe bat but they have certainly been found in Sussex since the first discovery in Yorkshire. They're probably more widespread than is realised.

As for mammal trapping you only need a license if targetting shrews (and this can easily be printed off the English Nature website!) I don't think you'd need one for mice but you might need permission if trapping on a nature reserve. Yellow-necked frequently enter houses and I've had them in mine before - if you know of someone who has a house backing onto woodland and who get mice in the loft, they might let you set some traps. I'd say this gives you a better chance than random trapping outdoors.

Longworth traps are great but they cost about £55 each. For a cheaper alternative (£15) that folds away flat try a sherman trap - I've caught plenty with the latter, and they can be taken away on holiday too without taking up much space.

cheers
James

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Thanks James.

So just to clarify- a license is no problem, but are you breaking the law if you accidentally capture a Shrew, when in-fact you had targeted Mice?

Cheers,
Jim.

Jhanlon said:

and BF's own Mark Hows has a cat that brought one in to him the other day!


James

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It has brought in 3 live harvest mice in 6 years so a bit of a wait until the next one.

I have trapped Harvest mice in longworths, so if you know of somewhere with a good population of them try trapping.

Mark

jimbob said:

Thanks James.

So just to clarify- a license is no problem, but are you breaking the law if you accidentally capture a Shrew, when in-fact you had targeted Mice?

Cheers,
Jim.

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If there is a possibility of capturing shrews then you must provide food specifically for shrews and the traps must be checked at least twice a day. The license for shrew capturing is a complete waste of time, if you need any specific advice I am happy to help.

So trapping in you garden shrews are a possibility, in your loft then not really a possibility so provide food accordingly.

Mark

Jhanlon said:

There was a regular one showing from a hide at Sculthorpe Moor last year. James

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And here is the Harvest Mouse from Dec 11 and it was also around Jan 12

Bank voles are almost always seen here


Mark

Thanks for the info about Harvest Mice, Chris James and Mark. I will have to keep looking. I believe Hickling is meant to be a good place for them. There were Bank Voles below the feeders at Sculthorpe when I was there last year. I am not surprised with the amount of seed on the ground.

Ron

jimbob said:

Thanks James.

So just to clarify- a license is no problem, but are you breaking the law if you accidentally capture a Shrew, when in-fact you had targeted Mice?

Cheers,
Jim.

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Actually I am not sure to be honest, someone on here probably knows the law better than me or there may be guidelines on the English Nature website. It may be that you're OK with accidental capture (and in fact should provide casters in case you do get a shrew?). I've generally only helped out others with mammal trapping; the only shrew trapping I did on my own was in Ireland on a non-native species where licensing wasn't an issue. But I think in Britain no-one is really bothered either way as the license is just something you print off the net! Doubt if it's a law that's ever been enforced!