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IOC World Bird List v8.2

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Old Wednesday 27th June 2018, 20:41   #26
awiner
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I did not have this problem (LibreOffice, MacOS).

(And as for Andy's question about Scythebill, I'm working on the 8.2 update now, but the funkiness with Manchurian Bush Warbler taxonomy and some related things is making my life a bit harder than it is for most updates.)
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Old Monday 2nd July 2018, 07:41   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by awiner View Post
I did not have this problem (LibreOffice, MacOS).

(And as for Andy's question about Scythebill, I'm working on the 8.2 update now, but the funkiness with Manchurian Bush Warbler taxonomy and some related things is making my life a bit harder than it is for most updates.)
Fantastic work Adam, amazing tech which makes my listing so simple.

Is there a way to tell easily, which birds in your Scythebill list have been elevated to species status when you incorporate an update?

Sometimes my list will be raised by say three species with an update but it's not always easy to figure out what they were so I usually end up trawling the IOC update page to track them down.


Cheers, Andy
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Old Monday 2nd July 2018, 22:56   #28
awiner
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I don't yet support that. Wouldn't be so hard to add it for splits (after all, I do know how many species you have at the end of an update), but it's more difficult than one might imagine for lumps.
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Old Tuesday 3rd July 2018, 15:01   #29
Larry Sweetland
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For me the easiest changes to miss, are when there are no splits or lumps, but a subsp has been moved into a different species. It's possible to overlook gaining or loosing a 'tick' like this.
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Old Tuesday 3rd July 2018, 18:12   #30
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In Scythebill and other listing softwares there is a way to handle that: assigning observations to subspecies, so that if the subspecies changes parent species, the observation goes with it. The problem I see with the approach is a philosophical one: subspecies assignment should happen as result of recognizing the plumage to be different, not just due to something being the expected subspecies at a given location. I sometimes violate my own reservations and assign an observation to subspecies anyway ...

Niels

Edit: I should add that I might know what the local bird should look like based on a field guide (for example) but not necessarily know what an alternative subspecies from a different location is expected to look like.
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Old Wednesday 4th July 2018, 18:39   #31
andyadcock
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Originally Posted by njlarsen View Post
In Scythebill and other listing softwares there is a way to handle that: assigning observations to subspecies, so that if the subspecies changes parent species, the observation goes with it. The problem I see with the approach is a philosophical one: subspecies assignment should happen as result of recognizing the plumage to be different, not just due to something being the expected subspecies at a given location. I sometimes violate my own reservations and assign an observation to subspecies anyway ...

Niels

Edit: I should add that I might know what the local bird should look like based on a field guide (for example) but not necessarily know what an alternative subspecies from a different location is expected to look like.

Just try that with Swiftlets!



A
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Old Wednesday 4th July 2018, 21:46   #32
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Just try that with Swiftlets!



A
You probably need to bring your portable DNA laboratory in that case

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Old Saturday 11th August 2018, 12:42   #33
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One question regarding two references in the latest IOC List, 8.2, June 2018, (also found in earlier, recent versions) ...

In the additional (Comment) column for Coopmans's Elaenia Elaenia brachyptera von Berlepsch, 1907, we find:
Quote:
Coopmans's Elaenia E. brachyptera is split from Lesser Elaenia (Rheindt et al 2015; SACC 686)
And in the ditto for Coopmans's Tyrannulet Zimmerius minimus (Chapman, 1912) we find:
Quote:
Zimmerius minimus (incl cumanensis) is split from Golden-faced Tyrannulet (Z. chrysops) (Rheindt et al. 2013, SACC 686)
I´ve got the two Rheindt et al Papers (2015 vs 2013), and the SACC 686 proposal (Treat Elaenia brachyptera as a separate species from Elaenia chiriquensis) ...

But the latter only deals with the Elaenia?!?

The Zimmerius taxon isn´t even mentioned in that proposal ...

What SACC document is relevant for the Zimmerius Tyrannulet?

Björn
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Old Saturday 11th August 2018, 15:06   #34
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Proposal 550 which was withdrawn following the voting on 441. For more info (and drama if you care to read it all), see here:

http://www.museum.lsu.edu/~Remsen/SACCprop441.htm
http://www.museum.lsu.edu/~Remsen/SACCprop550.html
https://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=241307
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Old Sunday 12th August 2018, 06:59   #35
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Thanks, "pbjosh", I will read it all.

So the SACC reference for Zimmerius minimus in the IOC List/s is simply; wrong ... !?

If it should have been SACC 550, it sure explains why I couldn't find it in 686 ...

Björn
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Old Sunday 12th August 2018, 17:38   #36
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About the Rheindt 2013 paper: I assume it's the one with title: "Rampant polyphyly indicates cryptic diversity in a clade of Neotropical flycatchers (Aves: Tyrannidae)"?

The strange thing is that neither minimus nor cumanensis were actually sampled ?!? It was assumed that 2 samples from Tachira (normally chrysops domain!) were referable to minimus?? Neither do I find a clear recommendation by the authors for splitting these taxa. Or did I miss another paper?

In any case, if it is based on the title mentioned above, distribution of Coopmans's Tyrannulet should include all of the Venezuelan Andes and the Perija mountains. The only problem then is that voice of cumanensis is clearly different from that in the Venezuelan Andes... (surprisingly no day-time calls have been recorded for minimus from the Santa Marta mts., so this part of the puzzle remains to be discovered).

A more likely scenario based on voice, I would think, is that cumanensis (only) is a distinct species. But to obtain more support for this, at least genetic sampling is needed for that taxon...
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Old Sunday 12th August 2018, 18:22   #37
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Small correction: There are actually 2 recordings of day-time calls of minimus from Santa Marta mts. in Macaulay (by Paul!) (apparently renamed in Oct. 2017 from Z. viridiflavus).

These confirm that voice of minimus is similar to birds in the Venezuelan Andes (chrysops 'north') and clearly different from cumanensis.
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Old Sunday 12th August 2018, 21:37   #38
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I´ve managed to reconstruct most of the SACC 550 proposal (from here and/or here) ...

And it ought to have been something like:

Quote:
Split Zimmerius minimus from Z. chrysops
[...]
I recommend recognition of Z. minimus from the Venezuelan Andes and the Santa Marta Mountains as an independent species Coopmans' s Tyrannulet, honoring the man who provided some of the earliest sound recordings of topotypical Z. minimus. Based on geographical proximity, the taxon cumanensis would best be recognized as a subspecies of Z. minimus (not Z. chrysops) pending data on its vocalizations and DNA.

[Based on the references:]

Rheindt F.E., Cuervo A.M., Brumfield R.T. Rampant polyphyly indicates cryptic diversity in a clade of Neotropical flycatchers (Aves: Tyrannidae). Biological Journal of the Linnean Society, in press. [later published in; Vol. 108, Issue 4, (April 2013), pp. 889-900: [here]

Rheindt F.E., Norman J.A., Christidis L. 2008. DNA evidence shows vocalizations to be a better indicator of taxonomic limits than plumage patterns in Zimmerius tyrant-flycatchers. Mol. Phylogenetics and Evolution 48: 150-156. [here]

Frank Rheindt, September 2012
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Old Monday 13th August 2018, 07:28   #39
Peter Boesman
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Thanks for this reconstruction, Björn! Now I see…

Quite a bold move of Frank Rheindt…
Apparently he was unaware of my recordings of cumanensis, which should have rang an alarm bell.
see e.g.
https://www.xeno-canto.org/232591
https://www.xeno-canto.org/232594
to be compared with birds from the Venezuelan Andes:
https://www.xeno-canto.org/232572
https://www.xeno-canto.org/232570

In any case, if IOC continues to treat Z. minimus as a distinct species, they should at least omit w Venezuela from the range of the remainder of Z. chrysops.
And obviously, the distribution map in XC is wrong...

minimus of the Santa Marta mts. may be closely related to birds of the Venezuelan Andes and Perija mts., may even be the same taxon, but at present I think there is just not enough evidence for such treatment. If this ultimately proves to be the case, and if cumanensis shows some genetic difference (quite likely given they are allopatric with no member of this group in the Coastal cordillera of Venezuela, we may end up with two additional species. Some DNA from museum skins is all it takes...
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Old Monday 13th August 2018, 15:05   #40
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Interesting discussion; thanks to both of you, Björn and Peter.
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Old Sunday 2nd September 2018, 14:41   #41
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Typo to report; on http://www.worldbirdnames.org/bow/nuthatch/
under Buphagidae (scroll to end of page)

Quote:
Separate the oxpeckers from the Sturnidae to the Buphagidae; they are sister to the starlings (Mimidae) and mockingbirds (Mimidae) (Lovette and Rubenstein 2007)
should of course read
Quote:
Separate the oxpeckers from the Sturnidae to the Buphagidae; they are sister to the starlings (Sturnidae) and mockingbirds (Mimidae) (Lovette and Rubenstein 2007)

Can someone pass it on to correct it, please?
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Old Sunday 2nd September 2018, 15:25   #42
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Another mistake

Quote:
Separate Black-bellied Starling from Lamprotornis to Notopholia; resequence to precede Lampropsar (Lovette & Rubenstein 2007)
Which should read

Quote:
Separate Black-bellied Starling from Lamprotornis to Notopholia; resequence to precede Lamprotornis (Lovette & Rubenstein 2007)
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Old Monday 3rd September 2018, 13:39   #43
Frank Gill
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Quote:
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Another mistake



Which should read
Fixed w thanks
f
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Old Monday 3rd September 2018, 13:43   #44
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Mark

It works fine for me using Excel and LibreOffice Calc but I get the same issue as you with OpenOffice Calc 4.1.5.

Mike
As this thread rises to the top of the list again I'm reminded I didn't close my issues with Open Office. Good news is upgrading to LibreOffice version solved the duplicate inserts so al good now

Cheers, McM
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