Join for FREE
It only takes a minute!
Zeiss - Always on the lookout for something special – Shop now

Welcome to BirdForum.
BirdForum is the net's largest birding community, dedicated to wild birds and birding, and is absolutely FREE! You are most welcome to register for an account, which allows you to take part in lively discussions in the forum, post your pictures in the gallery and more.

Rhinocryptidae

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rating: Thread Rating: 6 votes, 4.50 average.
Old Sunday 9th April 2017, 05:35   #101
Peter Kovalik
Registered User
 
Peter Kovalik's Avatar

 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Sp. Hrhov
Posts: 2,696
Scytalopus alvarezlopezi

Quote:
Originally Posted by LeNomenclatoriste View Post
Tif Update March 11, 2017

Tapaculos: The “Alto Pisones” Tapaculo has finally been described by Stiles et al. (2017). I have added it to the TiF list using their suggested English name: Tatama Tapaculo, Scytalopus alvarezlopezi. It seems to be sister to the Ecuadorian Tapaculo / El Oro Tapaculo, Scytalopus robbinsi.
[Furnariidae, Furnariida II, 3.03]
TiF Update April 8, 2017
I've added Alto Pisones Tapaculo as an alternate name for Tatama Tapaculo, Scytalopus alvarezlopezi.
Peter Kovalik is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Tuesday 23rd May 2017, 17:59   #102
thomasdonegan
Former amateur ornithologist

 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 325
Quote:
Originally Posted by l_raty View Post
Out of curiosity, is there an actual logic behind introducing a wholly new English name...?
"Pisones Tapaculo" has almost 3,000 hits in Google. We now have a quarter of century of literature behind us, that potentially includes significant information about this bird, but which cannot be retrieved using the 'standard' procedure (searching on a scientific name) due to our failure of having named it before now. At first sight, it seems that adding a new English name on top of this can only worsen the situation.
The problems highlighted here by Laurent are exacerbated by bad taxonomic and nomenclatural practices. In other taxonomic groups, it is considered mandatory or standard to cite ALL known prior references to the new/newly described species in previous literature (be it in lists, illustrations, papers and including when used under other names or as "sp." etc.). Here is a random example in entomology (see p.3 of PDF / p.344 of journal; half way down the page).

https://www.researchgate.net/publica..._South_America

These citations can, in some taxonomic reviews of well-studied groups, run to several pages' length for a single species. These cross-references are very valuable and also typically result in a technically longer type series, which is a good side-effect.

Modern ornithologists who turn their hand to taxonomy, or modern ornithological journals perhaps, don't seem to support these sorts of entries in species or subspecies descriptions. My solution to this issue in the past has been to "bury" a hopefully exhaustive set of references to all previous known references to a new taxon within the Introduction section. The attitude of many authors in recent species descriptions has been to "big up" their own work and contributions to a discovery in the Introduction and not really to refer to prior publications treating the new taxon, presumably as "irrelevant" detail. (The controversies around another recent Scytalopus description from southern S America may represent a high water mark of probably well-intentioned behavior with bad side-effects in this regard). The authors in the Alto Pisones Tapaculo paper therefore compound the issue of establishing a novel vernacular name (Tatama Tapaculo) for a widely-studied, widely-observed, bird which already features in multiple publications under another vernacular name, by failing to cite many of the multiple examples of its previous usage in the prior literature. The result is confusion to users, so this is not just a point about appropriate citation. I suspect the journals have a large hand to play in this situation, as it is notable that one of the authors of this description publicly "reached out" for information on prior publications concerning this species on NEOORN, so seemed at least to be attempting a useful set of cross-references at some point.

I have raised this issue with a "big journal" in relation to another recent description that suffers from similar (and other, graver) shortcomings regarding appropriate literature citations. Authors and journals seem disinterested in adopting the traditional nomenclatural practice of a list of prior usage of names in descriptions, sadly leaving those of us with a less in-depth knowledge to grope around in the dark for information about what is really going on. I think this sort of approach really needs to change and ornithology should align itself with the rest of the taxonomic world on appropriate citations of prior work in descriptions. That we don't can only be down to draconian and pointless journal rules, bad application of ecology publishing modalities to nomenclature or author narcissism or laziness.

Last edited by thomasdonegan : Tuesday 23rd May 2017 at 18:10.
thomasdonegan is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Tuesday 23rd May 2017, 20:26   #103
McMadd
and the continuing battle to take *****cilious britbirders to task...

 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Tampere
Posts: 2,343
Can the layman petition the ICZN to suppress such obvious crappiness?
McMadd is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Wednesday 24th May 2017, 04:38   #104
cajanuma
Registered User

 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Italy
Posts: 428
I'm not really sure I get this. The authors of the Tatama Tapaculo description are also the discoverers of this taxon, right? Then surely it is up to them to suggest an English name they feel is most appropriate. I always thought of "Alto Pisones Tapaculo" as a useful placeholder name for a taxon that eventually was going to have its own scientific name, and possibily a different English name as well. I really don't see why the discoverers of the tapaculo should cede their right to give it an English name to field guide authors (and by the way, I just noticed that in the ProAves guide the new Megascops from Santa Marta gets the English name "Santa Marta" Screech-Owl, with quotation marks around "Santa Marta", but Alto Pisones Tapaculo does not have quotation marks - this would have helped birders perceive the name as temporary).

So I don't see any "obvious crappyness" here, but at worst, some very minor inconvenience to birders
cajanuma is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Wednesday 24th May 2017, 09:33   #105
lewis20126
Registered User
 
lewis20126's Avatar

 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 9,262
Quote:
Originally Posted by l_raty View Post
Out of curiosity, is there an actual logic behind introducing a wholly new English name...?
"Pisones Tapaculo" has almost 3,000 hits in Google. We now have a quarter of century of literature behind us, that potentially includes significant information about this bird, but which cannot be retrieved using the 'standard' procedure (searching on a scientific name) due to our failure of having named it before now. At first sight, it seems that adding a new English name on top of this can only worsen the situation.
Interesting to note that, according to my recent check, Tatama Tapaculo now shows substantially more results than Alto Pisones Tapaculo..

cheers, alan
lewis20126 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Thursday 25th May 2017, 11:40   #106
thomasdonegan
Former amateur ornithologist

 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 325
I got 1,180 for "Tatama Tapaculo" and 2,140 for "Alto Pisones Tapaculo". The balance of usage to Tatama will certainly change over time if other authorities adopt this suggestion.

Above, I was not arguing necessarily for the name to be fixed in pre-publication grey literature and for the authors to follow this. However, authors who dawdle for 25 years before describing a bird which has been so widely observed and published upon by the time of description could do a better job of linking their work to prior usage in the literature to avoid confusion.

There has been quite a lot of contrariness for the sake of contrariness originating from SACC and its members recently in relation to English names, e.g. in Brush-Finches particularly. This looks like another example.

And before everyone blames ProAves, or Miles and my book for this other, destabilizing, bad name ... usage of "Alto de Pisones Tapaculo" as a widely used vernacular term really originated in this 2005 paper, which shares some common authorship with the recent description:

http://www.museum.lsu.edu/cuervo/pub...us_stilesi.pdf
thomasdonegan is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Thursday 25th May 2017, 12:08   #107
lewis20126
Registered User
 
lewis20126's Avatar

 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 9,262
Quote:
Originally Posted by thomasdonegan View Post
I got 1,180 for "Tatama Tapaculo" and 2,140 for "Alto Pisones Tapaculo".
My bad, I didn't use quotes, so was picking up lots of other noise; your results are close to what I just found.

cheers, alan
lewis20126 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Thursday 25th May 2017, 13:03   #108
COLOMBIA Birding
COLOMBIA Birding (Diego Calderon)
 
COLOMBIA Birding's Avatar

 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: All Colombia!
Posts: 2,005
Quote:
Originally Posted by thomasdonegan View Post
And before everyone blames ProAves, or Miles and my book for this other, destabilizing, bad name ... usage of "Alto de Pisones Tapaculo" as a widely used vernacular term really originated in this 2005 paper, which shares some common authorship with the recent description:

http://www.museum.lsu.edu/cuervo/pub...us_stilesi.pdf

jajaja, this gets fatuous again... not to start playing "the blame game" here Thomas but your example in the stilesi paper above does not apply; it would imply then that we are using -or should be using/popularizing- the name "Finca Merenberg Tapaculo" also; something does not happens indeed.

hermano, if we are objective (and this is what I've seen/learned from many many visiting clients and also from the growing local criollo birding community), is that your fielguide book is the one introducing the instability using names for birds that are not described yet... on the mid term, that has made that visiting and local unexperienced birders start using those names and making them popular google search hits because of their photos, reports, etc... even those names do not exist yet officially...

crystal clear to me! (so I don't see why the authors of the paper on the new Tatama tapaculo (Scytalopus alvarezlopezi) had to mention any of that misuse or even refer to it... one thing is the proper official description of a new species, another one very different is what birders want to do, how they use google, or how they would like a species be named so it gets easier for them to look for photos, reports, etc... decently informed birders would catch up and navigate the "2 names" situation OK actually, for sure ;-)

... don't you think that your book should not have made-up and used those "names" as has donde it? (even making up and using a non-existing Latin name in the case of the new Megascops from Santa Marta in the Spanish version... see attached images)

anyways... with all due respect, this about the "noise of introducing ""another"" English name" is really frivolous I think...
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	18745057_10154725417508517_335947626_o.jpg
Views:	97
Size:	62.6 KB
ID:	628199  Click image for larger version

Name:	18720809_10154725417463517_631756120_o.jpg
Views:	77
Size:	74.0 KB
ID:	628200  Click image for larger version

Name:	18697802_10154725417483517_383374629_o.jpg
Views:	83
Size:	109.5 KB
ID:	628201  Click image for larger version

Name:	18742281_10154725417518517_309537704_o.jpg
Views:	81
Size:	56.9 KB
ID:	628202  
COLOMBIA Birding is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Thursday 25th May 2017, 14:19   #109
thomasdonegan
Former amateur ornithologist

 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 325
Diego,

Sorry but how does this differ from your youtube postings of new species videos with (largely the same) vernacular names? All we were trying to do was be useful to users; this may not have the same objective as taxonomists mulling for years or decades over a description whilst they try to get enough data and insights to be able to publish it in as high impact a journal as possible, with less interest in speed or users' needs.

The name gilesi nom. nud. was first published in a widely-commented-upon ABC publication and was certainly not made up by me or any of the other authors of our field guide. Get your facts straight if you want to make allegations like that. You will note gilesi only featured in the first edition (2010) anyway and the 2011 and 2014 editions used "sp." more correctly. Repetition of previously "described" nomina nuda is commonplace in taxonomic publications generally anyhow.

The Finca Merenberg tapaculo was described (as S rodriguezi) within a few months of the 2005 paper I just linked, not 12 years later... You are comparing apples with oranges.

I thought you were part of Cadena's boycott of our books? It's really disappointing to see you have a copy! It must be even more disappointing to you and your friends that all three print runs are now out of stock.

Thomas

Last edited by thomasdonegan : Thursday 25th May 2017 at 14:54.
thomasdonegan is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Thursday 25th May 2017, 15:14   #110
COLOMBIA Birding
COLOMBIA Birding (Diego Calderon)
 
COLOMBIA Birding's Avatar

 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: All Colombia!
Posts: 2,005
Thumbs up

Quote:
Originally Posted by thomasdonegan View Post
Sorry but how does this differ from your youtube postings of new species videos with (largely the same) vernacular names?Thomas
not going to get involved again and again and again into this crap Thomas, so this is my last posting... anyways, answering the above: it differs in that my clearly commercial, recreational, birding, not so important, videos and posts are not THE BOOK; my personal/company stuff don't have as much impact and responsibility as one of the main FIELDGUIDES of the birds of a country has (that even showcases teletubbies and all sorts of buffoonery) ... pretty different I would say... anyways mate, "entre gustos, no hay disgustos" and I am not going to comment any further into all the other incitements to get me going here even at the end I win the "same old Diego, same old lies" title you gave me earlier on your just edited post... ;-)

... todo bien; hace mucho tiempo ya no me desgasto ni disgusto con estas bobadas.. aunque las disfrute (me pusiste incluso a buscar los teletubbies en la guía, así que me temo que "perdí" pues usé el libro.. jaja) .. más bien me río un rato y listo... saludos ;-)
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	Sin ti?tulo.png.jpg
Views:	127
Size:	389.9 KB
ID:	628214  Click image for larger version

Name:	Captura de pantalla 2017-05-25 a la(s) 10.17.25.jpg
Views:	53
Size:	28.7 KB
ID:	628215  

Last edited by COLOMBIA Birding : Thursday 25th May 2017 at 15:18. Reason: adding an image
COLOMBIA Birding is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Thursday 25th May 2017, 15:34   #111
thomasdonegan
Former amateur ornithologist

 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 325
Quote:
Originally Posted by COLOMBIA Birding View Post
... todo bien; hace mucho tiempo ya no me desgasto ni disgusto con estas bobadas.. aunque las disfrute (me pusiste incluso a buscar los teletubbies en la guía, así que me temo que "perdí" pues usé el libro.. jaja) .. más bien me río un rato y listo... saludos ;-)
Developing a sense of humour is probably a step way too far for Colombian ornithology, given all its troubles and personalities. That teletubby plate is the best one in the book! I'm just sad we didn't have the space to include all the Titifiers on one of the toucans plates.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d3-3_VYW7Rs

Quote:
Originally Posted by COLOMBIA Birding View Post
same old Diego same old lies
Yes I did write that, because it's true and you wound me up. But I deleted it because I was trying to be polite. But you put it online again.

--

I was trying to make a fairly boring point about the usage of footnotes in scientific descriptions differing in ornithology versus the rest of the taxonomic world with examples and suggesting we don't do things properly in ornithology. It was not supposed to become another Colombian-type feud and this detracts from that very boring but probably worth-thinking-about-and-addressing point raised above. Probably that is my fault in large part however for tone and, just now, responding to bait. Sorry all.

Last edited by thomasdonegan : Thursday 25th May 2017 at 15:49.
thomasdonegan is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Monday 20th November 2017, 06:11   #112
LeNomenclatoriste
Taxonomy and Shiny hunting
 
LeNomenclatoriste's Avatar

 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: No where, my soul is lost in the churchyard
Posts: 575
On identification errors in Scytalopus speluncae (Ménétriés) and S. pachecoi Maurício from southern Brazil with new data on distribution and biogeography of these taxa (Aves: Rhinocryptidae)
GIOVANNI NACHTIGALL MAURÍCIO, MARCOS RICARDO BORNSCHEIN

Abstract

The Brazilian tapaculo Scytalopus speluncae species-group has been the subject of intense taxonomic work in the past 18 years, with six new species being named in that time lapse and other taxonomic problems having been highlighted (Bornschein et al. 1998, 2007; Maurício 2005; Raposo et al. 2006, 2012; Mata et al. 2009; Whitney et al. 2010; Maurício et al. 2010, 2014; Pulido-Santacruz et al. 2016). One of the most persistent of these problems involves the oldest name in this group, S. speluncae (Ménétriès), and the taxa it may represent. Historically, this name has been applied to the dark gray populations (whose adult males have plain gray flanks) occurring along coastal mountains between Espírito Santo and São Paulo states in Brazil (Raposo et al. 2006; Maurício et al. 2010). Subsequently, dark gray populations from the Brazilian states of Paraná, Santa Catarina, and Rio Grande do Sul, as well as paler gray birds with black-barred brown flanks from northeastern Argentina (Misiones Province) and adjacent southern Brazilian states were also subsumed under S. speluncae (Bornschein et al. 1998; Maurício 2005; Maurício et al. 2010). However, the paler gray, barred populations from Argentina and some parts of Santa Catarina and Rio Grande do Sul have proved to be a distinct and partially sympatric species named S. pachecoi Maurício, which was shown to be not closely related to S. speluncae, but rather pertains to the very divergent clade of S. novacapitalis Sick and related forms (Maurício 2005; Mata et al. 2009). On the other hand, the dark-gray populations coming from Espírito Santo south to Rio Grande do Sul continued to be identified as S. speluncae.

http://www.mapress.com/j/zt/article/...taxa.4350.3.13
LeNomenclatoriste is online now  
Reply With Quote
Old Wednesday 9th May 2018, 13:35   #113
thomasdonegan
Former amateur ornithologist

 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 325
Quote:
Originally Posted by COLOMBIA Birding View Post
my personal/company stuff don't have as much impact and responsibility as one of the main FIELDGUIDES of the birds of a country has (that even showcases teletubbies and all sorts of buffoonery) ... pretty different I would say
Correction and clarification for the benefit of humourless persons* and others for whom "jokes" need explaining:

Makka Pakka is a character from "In the Night Garden". Not a Teletubby. So there. Get your facts straight!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZNnBqclN4IM

Not to be confused with Paca (Agouti paca) which it is on the same page as.

* Syn: Colombian ornithologists.

Last edited by thomasdonegan : Wednesday 9th May 2018 at 13:38.
thomasdonegan is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Wednesday 9th May 2018, 16:49   #114
THE_FERN
Registered User

 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: London
Posts: 494
C'mon guys; think 'nuf said in this vein... (But I couldn't see the point of the cartoons either.) Wish the plates were better, but having said that I have found them surprisingly useful, esp. when coupled with the notes. Perhaps we could go back to things material to avian taxonomy?
THE_FERN is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Thursday 26th July 2018, 18:47   #115
Peter Kovalik
Registered User
 
Peter Kovalik's Avatar

 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Sp. Hrhov
Posts: 2,696
Scytalopus alvarezlopezi

Proposal (803) to SACC

Recognize the newly described Scytalopus alvarezlopezi
Peter Kovalik is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Thursday 23rd August 2018, 17:46   #116
Peter Kovalik
Registered User
 
Peter Kovalik's Avatar

 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Sp. Hrhov
Posts: 2,696
Eleoscytalopus

Leonardo Amaral de Moraes, Marcos Ricardo Bornschein, Cassiano Augusto Ferreira Rodrigues Gatto, Sidnei Sampaio dos Santos, and Giovanni Nachtigall Maurício (2018) Taxonomic review of the rhinocryptid genus Eleoscytalopus (I): Bahia Tapaculo (E. psychopompus) is vocally and morphologically distinct from White-breasted Tapaculo (E. indigoticus). The Auk: October 2018, Vol. 135, No. 4, pp. 1009-1019.

Abstract:

The Bahia Tapaculo (Eleoscytalopus psychopompus) is a rare taxon endemic to a narrow strip of lowland Atlantic Forest in the coast of Bahia, Brazil. Its phenotypic distinction from its sister species, the White-breasted Tapaculo (E. indigoticus), has been considered doubtful because the supposed diagnostic plumage characters were proposed on the basis of only 3 specimens (the type series) and there were no vocal data for the Bahia Tapaculo. Given that it is classified as endangered globally according to IUCN criteria, the definition of the taxonomic status of the Bahia Tapaculo is fundamental for the adoption of effective conservation measures. We conducted analyses of plumage, morphometrics, and vocalizations of both Bahia and White-breasted tapaculos to test for the phenotypic distinction between them. We found that their songs differ significantly in 2 parameters, pace (no overlap) and frequency (slight overlap); and that their calls (both monosyllabic and multisyllabic calls) differ in multiple parameters, including note shape and structure. Plumage color and pattern differ in 4 aspects, including a prominent one, barred vs. unbarred flanks. We found a difference in wing:tail ratio, with no overlap, revealing that these taxa are proportioned differently, with the Bahia Tapaculo tending to have longer wings and shorter tail. These differences, besides the genetic distance and reciprocal monophyly, are of the same or greater magnitude than those found between several sister taxa accepted as biological species in the family Rhinocryptidae, thus supporting biological species status for the Bahia Tapaculo.
Peter Kovalik is offline  
Reply With Quote
Advertisement
Reply


Thread Tools
Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

{googleads}

Fatbirder's Top 1000 Birding Websites

Help support BirdForum

Page generated in 0.23550391 seconds with 26 queries
All times are GMT. The time now is 19:42.