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Old Friday 7th May 2010, 08:24   #1
Peter Kovalik
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Redstarts

Voelker 2010. Repeated vicariance of Eurasian songbird lineages since the Late Miocene. Journal of Biogeography: Early View.
Abstract: here

Phoenicurus (caeruleocephalus, frontalis, erythronotus) is polyphyletic with respect to Chaimarrornis and Rhyacornis.

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Old Friday 20th August 2010, 20:27   #2
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Redstarts

I'm curious about the content, which species are tested or not. John Boyd incorporates it, but I find some of the groupings to be intuitively weird.

For me, Black, Common and Hodgson's naturally group together. He pairs Hodgson's with Güldenstädt's, sister to Black + Daurian and Common + Moussier's. Moussier's especially is really an oddball in the mix!

But then again, it's not the first time bird taxonomy challenges intuition. If Cinnamon Ibon can be a sparrow, anything can happen!
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Old Friday 20th August 2010, 21:09   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gusasp View Post
I'm curious about the content, which species are tested or not. John Boyd incorporates it, but I find some of the groupings to be intuitively weird.

For me, Black, Common and Hodgson's naturally group together. He pairs Hodgson's with Güldenstädt's, sister to Black + Daurian and Common + Moussier's. Moussier's especially is really an oddball in the mix!

But then again, it's not the first time bird taxonomy challenges intuition. If Cinnamon Ibon can be a sparrow, anything can happen!
Voelker, 2010:
I was not successful in obtaining sufficient sequence data from a toepad sample of Phoenicurus moussieri (distributed in North Africa) nor any data from a toepad sample of Phoenicurus schisticeps...
About Phoenicurus schisticeps but not Ph. moussieri Pan et al, 2006:
http://www.currentzoology.org/temp/%...5266E61%7D.pdf
Sangster et al, 2010:
Phoenicurus auroreus, Ph. ochruros, Ph. phoenicurus and Ph. moussieri
were more closely related to Chaimarrornis leucocephalus and Rhyacornis fuliginosus than to Ph. frontalis, with strong support (PP 0.97, ML 100%).
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Old Saturday 12th November 2011, 12:23   #4
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Eastern Black Redstart

Possibly of interest, some discussion on the Rare Bird Information forum.
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Old Monday 21st November 2011, 15:11   #5
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Eastern Black Redstarts

Further to my recent notes on the Rare Bird Information forum......more observations by Martin Garner on his Birding Frontiers blog:
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Old Thursday 8th December 2011, 12:05   #6
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Eastern Black Redstart

Hunt 2011. The Eastern Black Redstarts in Kent and Northumberland – the first confirmed British records. Birding World 24(11): 460-466.
Quote:
Taxonomy
...Tobias et al. (2010) promote the idea that individual taxa be assessed if they meet the criteria for species status, rather than waiting for a full review of all forms and, in the case of Black Redstart, that is indeed most helpful advice, because the position of ochruros requires further study. Clearly then, the best treatment is to split Western Black Redstart as a monotypic species, Phoenicurus gibraltariensis; Eastern Black Redstart then becomes a polytypic species, P. ochruros (comprising P. o. ochruros, P. o. semirufus, P. o. phoenicuroides and P. o. rufiventris). ...
Eds.
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Old Friday 2nd November 2012, 10:21   #7
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Common Redstart

Hogner, Laskemoen, Lifjeld, Porkert, Kleven, Albayrak, Kabasakal & Johnsen (in press). Deep sympatric mitochondrial divergence without reproductive isolation in the common redstart Phoenicurus phoenicurus. Ecol Evol. [abstract] [pdf]
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Old Friday 2nd November 2012, 11:34   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Klim View Post
Hogner, Laskemoen, Lifjeld, Porkert, Kleven, Albayrak, Kabasakal & Johnsen (in press). Deep sympatric mitochondrial divergence without reproductive isolation in the common redstart Phoenicurus phoenicurus. Ecol Evol. [abstract] [pdf]
Richard,
Fascinating stuff! The final sentence, though, is too sweeping from what has gone before, I would suggest.

The authors say:
"Sympatric mtDNA divergences are relatively rare in birds, but the fact that they occur argues against the use of threshold mtDNA divergences in species delineation."

I respectfully suggest that their occurrence rather 'argues against automatic acceptance of threshold mtDNA divergences...'. In other words, threshold mtDNA divergences are useful tools in the biology toolbox; in conjunction with other indicators or contexts, they aid interpretation.

Also, from this paper's argument, a possible corollary is that low mtDNA divergences do not exclude separate populations being of species rank...

Just stirring slightly...
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Old Friday 2nd November 2012, 12:25   #9
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Hogner et al

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Originally Posted by MJB View Post
Fascinating stuff!
Yes, Mike. When I first saw the title, I wrongly assumed that the paper concerned a zone of hybridisation between nominate phoenicurus and samamisicus ('Ehrenberg's Redstart').
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Old Sunday 11th November 2012, 19:31   #10
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Very interesting paper!
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Old Thursday 9th January 2014, 11:18   #11
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Ehrenberg's Redstart

Ayé, Martinez & Stalling 2014. The vocalisations of 'Ehrenberg's Redstart'. Brit Birds 107(1): 26–36.
Quote:
Abstract The vocalisations of 'Ehrenberg's Redstart' Phoenicurus phoenicurus samamisicus are analysed and compared with those of the nominate race. There is considerable variation in the song of both races, but three parts can usually be distinguished: an introductory note; a repetitive, heavily modulated sequence; and a highly variable component at the end. In samamisicus, the introduction is variable and only rarely does it consist solely of a clear whistle similar to that of nominate phoenicurus. The song of samamisicus varies geographically but no large-scale geographical variation in the song of phoenicurus was found. On its own, the call appears not to be an infallible means of separating the races because some phoenicurus, at least from the eastern part of the range, can give calls identical to samamisicus.

...
Differences in vocalisations and taxonomy
There are some consistent differences in the songs of phoenicurus and samamisicus, although some introgression of typical phoenicurus elements occurs within the range of samamisicus. This suggests that the geographical boundaries of vocal differences may not correspond with those of plumage differences. Similarly, differences in calls do not correspond with the boundaries of plumage differences. It is generally assumed that calls have a stronger genetic component in their inheritance than songs. Whether the Common Redstart is an exception to this rule, or how the flat call heard in some of the easternmost populations of phoenicurus arose, is unknown.
...
van den Berg 2013 (Dutch Birding bird names) lists Ehrenberg's Redstart P p samamisicus as a 'distinct subspecies sometimes considered specifically distinct'.

Collar 2005 (HBW 10).
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Old Tuesday 24th June 2014, 17:00   #12
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Black & Daurian Redstarts

Blick, Voelker & Drovetski. Biogeographical Patterns of Two Phoenicurus Redstarts Across Eurasia. Evolution 2014. (p363)
Quote:
The avian genus Phoenicurus (redstarts) are widely distributed across Eurasia and Northwest Africa. Many species are migratory and have widespread distributions, while a few species are more restricted geographically. Recent studies have found genetic and geographic structuring within a number of species distributed across eastern, western, and southern Eurasia. An interspecific biogeographic study of Phoenicurus has also indicated that both Phoenicurus auroreus and Phoenicurus ochruros have deeply divergent clades; this was however based on very limited sampling of geographically disjunct populations. In this study, we elucidate the biogeographic patterns of Phoenicurus through phylogenetic and phylogeographic analysis of Phoenicurus ochruros and Phoenicurus auroreus, using 2 independent molecular loci: mitochondrial NADH dehydrogenase 2 and intron 9 of the Z chromosome specific ACO1. Bayesian, maximum likelihood, and molecular dating methods are used to assess patterns of diversification within each species. We then compare phylogenetic structure between these species in order to determine possible causative links between genetic structuring and vicariant events, such as desertification and glacial cycles of Eurasia that have been linked to widespread speciation patterns in Eurasian birds.

Last edited by Richard Klim : Tuesday 24th June 2014 at 20:47.
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Old Tuesday 18th November 2014, 16:40   #13
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Voelker et al

Forthcoming...

Voelker, Semenov, Fadeev, Blick & Drovetski (in press). The biogeographic history of Phoenicurus redstarts reveals an allopatric mode of speciation and an out-of-Himalayas colonization pattern. Syst Biodivers.
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Old Wednesday 21st January 2015, 13:28   #14
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Voelker et al

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Klim View Post
Forthcoming...
Voelker, Semenov, Fadeev, Blick & Drovetski (in press). The biogeographic history of Phoenicurus redstarts reveals an allopatric mode of speciation and an out-of-Himalayas colonization pattern. Syst Biodivers.
Voelker, Semenov, Fadeev, Blick & Drovetski (in press). The biogeographic history of Phoenicurus redstarts reveals an allopatric mode of speciation and an out-of-Himalayas colonization pattern. Syst Biodivers. [abstract & preview]
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Old Monday 1st June 2015, 18:59   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Klim View Post
Voelker, Semenov, Fadeev, Blick & Drovetski (in press). The biogeographic history of Phoenicurus redstarts reveals an allopatric mode of speciation and an out-of-Himalayas colonization pattern. Syst Biodivers. [abstract & preview]
[PDF]
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Old Monday 25th June 2018, 16:19   #16
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Black Redstart

Fedorenko V.A., 2018. A new subspecies of the Black Redstart – Phoenicurus ochruros murinus subsp. nov. from the Altai-Sayan Mountainous Country and the current breeding range of the Black Redstart. Proc. Zool. Inst. Russ. Acad. Sci. 322 (2): 108-128.

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Old Monday 25th June 2018, 23:06   #17
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Originally Posted by Daniel Philippe View Post
Fedorenko V.A., 2018. A new subspecies of the Black Redstart – Phoenicurus ochruros murinus subsp. nov. from the Altai-Sayan Mountainous Country and the current breeding range of the Black Redstart. Proc. Zool. Inst. Russ. Acad. Sci. 322 (2): 108-128.

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Old Wednesday 15th August 2018, 04:39   #18
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In Handbook of Western Palearctic birds, it is discussed that Black Redstart nominate subspecies ochruros is perhaps not valid, but is maintained for stability, because its suppression would require a new scientific name for the whole species. But is that true? I would have thought that either gibraltariensis or semirufus becomes a junior synonym of ochruros.
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Old Tuesday 21st August 2018, 21:35   #19
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In Handbook of Western Palearctic birds, it is discussed that Black Redstart nominate subspecies ochruros is perhaps not valid, but is maintained for stability, because its suppression would require a new scientific name for the whole species. But is that true? I would have thought that either gibraltariensis or semirufus becomes a junior synonym of ochruros.
Not sure on that - suppose for example if the type specimen of ochruros was demonstrably a hybrid between gibraltariensis and semirufus?
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Old Wednesday 22nd August 2018, 23:37   #20
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I don't know about "instability" -- if ochruros was invalid then I could create a new name. Let's call it "Phoenicurus nutcrackeri Clapham, P, 2018". Then yes, the name of the species would become Phoenicurus gibraltariensis and hordes of maddened birders would rise up in anger... no, they wouldn't. The name of the subspecies formerly known as ochruros would now be Phoenicurus gibraltariensis nutcrackeri.

Well, if this is instability I'm unimpressed. Certainly this kind of renaming has happened many times before.

(And no, I didn't create a new name in this thread.)
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Old Thursday 23rd August 2018, 04:38   #21
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No, the name ochruros is not invalid, but the subspecies it is referring to possibly is - it is very variable and may well originate from secondary intergradation. It is Gmelin's name from eighteenth century, so the type may well not be available. The type locality is Gilan mountains in northern Iran, close to Caspian sea - so it is from the eastern parts of the nominate ochruros distribution area.
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Old Thursday 23rd August 2018, 10:15   #22
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Black Redstart Phoenicurus ochruros S.G. GMELIN 1774 (here) as "Motacilla ochruros"

Also see Mlíkovský (2011), here (p.99):
Quote:
TYPE SERIES: S.G. Gmelin ... described a male and a female. The type series thus consisted at least of two specimens.
TYPE LOCALITY: “ein Einwohner der Persischen Gebürge” (“inhabitant of Persian moun- tains”) .... Considering S.G. Gmelin’s itinerary I restrict here the type locality of Motacilla ochruros to Talesh Mountains, Gilan Province, Iran. See under Motacilla longirostra (above) for discussion of the type locality.
One of the types, claimed as a "Holotype"(?) according to the Dutch Wiki (here), is allegedly specimen "94764", kept in the collection of Museum Koeing (Zoologisches Forschungsmuseum Alexander Koenig), in Bonn, Germany.

If of any help?

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Last edited by Calalp : Thursday 23rd August 2018 at 16:19. Reason: One ... "Holotype"(?) + latter link
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Old Thursday 23rd August 2018, 13:15   #23
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Gmelin described "the male" and "the female", which proves there is a type series (no holotype), but gives no indication on how many birds it would be made of. (A description of "the male" or "the female" of a species doesn't need to be based on a single individual male or female. In principle, in such cases, all the individuals that the author thought of as being included in the new taxon are syntypes; any available evidence, from the OD or from elsewhere, published or unpublished, can be used to identify these individuals.)

The original plate, to complete Björn's link to the OD: [here].

I'm aware of no cases where this has been done in practice, but I don't think any nomenclatural rule would forbid using a name as valid at the species level, but deeming it unidentifiable at the subspecies level. The result would simply be a species without a nominal subspecies.

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Old Thursday 23rd August 2018, 17:47   #24
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Alexander Koenig Museum
"The most precious specimens are types (holotypes, syntypes and paratypes) of more than 300 taxa. The oldest series of exhibits belongs to the collection of the "bird pastor" Christian Ludwig Brehm" I could see Brehm getting hold of Gmelin's birds.
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