Join for FREE
It only takes a minute!
Zeiss - Always on the lookout for something special – Shop now

Welcome to BirdForum.
BirdForum is the net's largest birding community, dedicated to wild birds and birding, and is absolutely FREE! You are most welcome to register for an account, which allows you to take part in lively discussions in the forum, post your pictures in the gallery and more.

Ficedula

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rating: Thread Rating: 10 votes, 5.00 average.
Old Wednesday 24th February 2010, 20:31   #1
Daniel Philippe
Registered User
 
Daniel Philippe's Avatar

 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: France
Posts: 1,018
Ficedula

http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/c...85565/PDFSTART
Daniel Philippe is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Thursday 25th February 2010, 09:14   #2
Brian J Small
Registered User

 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Suffolk, UK
Posts: 1,032
An interesting paper, but I hate the use of lower-case for specific bird names adopted: e.g. collared flycatcher and pied flycatcher. Grammatically, some might argue this correct, but we have moved on and grammar changes....

Brian S
Brian J Small is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Thursday 25th February 2010, 09:32   #3
Richard Klim
-------------------------
 
Richard Klim's Avatar

 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Somerset, UK
Posts: 12,792
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian J Small View Post
An interesting paper, but I hate the use of lower-case for specific bird names adopted: e.g. collared flycatcher and pied flycatcher. Grammatically, some might argue this correct, but we have moved on and grammar changes....
Try telling RSPB...

Many (most?) scientific papers avoid using vernacular names altogether – I think that's always the safest policy, to avoid any confusion or controversy.

Richard
Richard Klim is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Thursday 25th February 2010, 14:21   #4
njlarsen
Opus Editor
 
njlarsen's Avatar

 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: St. James, Barbados
Posts: 22,437
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Klim View Post
Many (most?) scientific papers avoid using vernacular names altogether – I think that's always the safest policy, to avoid any confusion or controversy.

Richard
Depending on the Journal in question, some of them recommend common names throughout and scientific name in parenthesis at first usage ...

As have been discussed a lot of times, genus changes are not that rare for birds, so common names are sometimes more stable.

Niels
__________________
Support bird conservation in the Caribbean: BirdCaribbean

Just moved to Barbados
njlarsen is offline  
Reply With Quote

BF Supporter 2005 2006 2007 2008 2009 2010 2011 2012 2013 2014 2015 2016 2017 Support BirdForum With A Donation

Old Saturday 6th March 2010, 09:51   #5
Motmot
Eduardo Amengual
 
Motmot's Avatar

 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: N Gredos
Posts: 6,144
I see that iberiae is still kept as a ssp of Pied Fly, even though it clearly looks visually closer to Atlas Fly. Is there any specific work going on about the position of iberian birds?
__________________
"Happiness should always remain a bit incomplete. After all, dreams are boundless"
Karpov
Motmot is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Saturday 6th March 2010, 10:43   #6
Daniel Philippe
Registered User
 
Daniel Philippe's Avatar

 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: France
Posts: 1,018
Quote:
Originally Posted by Motmot View Post
Is there any specific work going on about the position of iberian birds?
These 2 articles shed some light :

http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/j...20189/abstract

http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/j...15039/abstract

PM if you want more.
Daniel Philippe is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Saturday 6th March 2010, 10:56   #7
Richard Klim
-------------------------
 
Richard Klim's Avatar

 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Somerset, UK
Posts: 12,792
Iberian Pied Flycatcher

Quote:
Originally Posted by Motmot View Post
I see that iberiae is still kept as a ssp of Pied Fly, even though it clearly looks visually closer to Atlas Fly.
Taylor 2006 (HBW11) comments: "Race iberiae sometimes considered unwarranted, being merely an intergrade between latter [speculigera] and nominate [hypoleuca]".

Richard
Richard Klim is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Saturday 6th March 2010, 12:41   #8
Motmot
Eduardo Amengual
 
Motmot's Avatar

 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: N Gredos
Posts: 6,144
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Klim View Post
Taylor 2006 (HBW11) comments: "Race iberiae sometimes considered unwarranted, being merely an intergrade between latter [speculigera] and nominate [hypoleuca]".

Richard
Thanks Richard,
Yep I read that, but now that the split Atlas/Pied seems to be more widely accepted I wonder in which side will iberiae finally end up.
Visually there can't be much debate, looks much closer to Atlas, sometimes almost impossible to tell apart. I've been a few times in big trouble while ringing in the Balearics, trying to decide if a trapped bird was an iberiae or maybe an Atlas Fly. Genetics may tell a different story though.
Found this from the BOU website (for another thread 6 years ago!):


"Atlas Flycatcher Ficedula speculigera.

The Eurasian black-and-white flycatchers have been treated as three separate species: Pied Ficedula hypoleuca, Collared F. albicollis and Semi-collared F. semitorquata. Adult males are diagnosably distinct on the basis of rump colour, size of forehead patch, extent of white on secondaries and tertials, and extent of white on outer tail feathers. Females can also be separated with care, but there is more overlap.
Populations of hypoleuca from Iberia and NW Africa are allopatric to all other black-and-white Flycatchers. Following ‘the guidelines’ (Helbig et al. 2002), allopatric taxa should be regarded as separate species if they are fully diagnosable in each of several discrete or continuously varying characters related to different functional contexts or DNA sequences, and if the sum of the character differences corresponds with or exceeds that seen in related species that coexist in sympatry. The Spanish form (iberiae) has a larger white forehead than the nominate race, and there is more white in the wings than in populations from further north. Birds from the Atlas Mountains (speculigera) have the greater coverts completely white, but with much less white in the outer tail feathers than in hypoleuca. The white forehead is more extensive in speculigera than in any other forms of hypoleuca. Speculigera is probably diagnosably distinct from iberiae on size of forehead patch. In many ways, speculigera is closer to albicollis, apart from complete neck collar in latter.
Morphology: Adult males from the four taxa seem to be diagnosably distinct, using a combination of characters – mantle colour, size of forehead patch, white edging to tail feathers, rump colour and presence of neck collar.
Several recent papers report upon the molecular genetics and morphology of this taxon (refs).

Molecular data: c3000 base pairs of DNA sequence were obtained from the mitochondrial genome. Genetic distances were computed as shown in the Table. The bigger the number, the more different are the birds. Figures along the diagonal relate to variation among individuals within a taxon.

Atlas Collared Pied (C/N) Pied (Spain) Semi-collared
Atlas 0.19 2.94 3.40 3.33 4.12
Collared 0.12 2.89 2.83 4.02
Pied (Czech/Norway) 0.17 0.49 4.45
Pied (Spain) 0.04 4.38
Semi-collared 0.39

There are several points to note:
First, ignoring for the moment the Atlas birds, the genetic distance between Spanish and Czech Pied Flycatchers (in green) is more similar to that within species (in blue) than between species (in red). This indicates that, despite the plumage differences, Czech and Iberian Pied Flycatchers are conspecific.
Second, Semi-collared is genetically more different from the rest. This indicates that Semi-collared is probably the oldest form.
Third, birds from the Atlas Mountains are more different from Pied Flycatchers than Collareds.

Molecular phylogeny
These data indicate four distinct groups (hypoleuca, albicollis, semitorquata and speculigera). The order of branching in a phylogenetic reconstruction of these data (Fig.) suggests that semitorquata evolved first, and the other three more or less simultaneously. Semi-collared and Pied Flycatchers from widely different areas cluster together in the reconstruction.




Other molecular data
Nuclear sequences: Approximately 3800 bp were sequenced from several different nuclear sites. These confirm the branching order revealed by the mitochondrial data, albeit with lower levels of base-pair divergence. However, this is not atypical of nuclear sequences, and there are fixed differences between the taxa.
Microsatellites: These data are not directly relevant to the status of speculigera since this taxon is not included in the analysis. However, Iberian birds are included in the hypoleuca data, and show a clear separation from albicollis.


Recommendation: The genetic distance between speculigera and both hypoleuca and albicollis is similar to that between the latter themselves. Speculigera is as different from semitorquata as are both hypoleuca and albicollis. Adult males are diagnosably distinct morphologically. If albicollis is regarded as a distinct species, then speculigera must be as well.

It is recommended that the population of black-and-white flycatchers breeding in the Atlas Mountains and adjacent areas of NW Africa is treated as a separate species Ficedula speculigera, the Atlas Flycatcher."

Eduardo
__________________
"Happiness should always remain a bit incomplete. After all, dreams are boundless"
Karpov

Last edited by Motmot : Saturday 6th March 2010 at 12:46.
Motmot is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Monday 7th June 2010, 19:36   #9
Richard Klim
-------------------------
 
Richard Klim's Avatar

 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Somerset, UK
Posts: 12,792
Atlas Flycatcher

Copete, Armada, López & Bigas 2010. Identification of Atlas Flycatcher in summer plumage. Dutch Birding 32(3): 155-162.
http://www.dutchbirding.nl/journal.php?id=231

[Ficedula speculigera is now recognised as a species by Dutch Birding, IOC, Cornell/Clements, AERC, BOURC.]

Richard
Richard Klim is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Thursday 1st July 2010, 19:37   #10
Daniel Philippe
Registered User
 
Daniel Philippe's Avatar

 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: France
Posts: 1,018
speciation

More
Daniel Philippe is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Wednesday 14th July 2010, 06:49   #11
Richard Klim
-------------------------
 
Richard Klim's Avatar

 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Somerset, UK
Posts: 12,792
Pied & Collared Flycatchers

Backström, Lindell, Zhang, Palkopoulou, Qvarnström, Sætre & Ellegren 2010. A high-density scan of the Z-chromosome in Ficedula flycatchers reveals candidate loci for diversifying selection. Evolution: in press.
http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/j...82582/abstract

Richard
Richard Klim is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Wednesday 28th July 2010, 14:28   #12
Richard Klim
-------------------------
 
Richard Klim's Avatar

 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Somerset, UK
Posts: 12,792
Pied & Collared Flycatchers

Backström, Palkopoulou, Qvarnström & Ellegren 2010. No evidence for Z-chromosome rearrangements between the pied flycatcher and the collared flycatcher as judged by gene-based comparative genetic maps. Mol Ecol: in press.
http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/j...95013/abstract

Richard
Richard Klim is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Friday 31st December 2010, 11:14   #13
Richard Klim
-------------------------
 
Richard Klim's Avatar

 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Somerset, UK
Posts: 12,792
Collared Flycatcher

Zagalska-Neubauer, Babik, Stuglik, Gustafsson, Cichon & Radwan. 454 sequencing reveals extreme complexity of the class II Major Histocompatibility Complex in the collared flycatcher. BMC Evol Biol 10:395.
http://www.biomedcentral.com/content...148-10-395.pdf

Richard
Richard Klim is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Friday 31st December 2010, 15:10   #14
MJB
Registered User
 
MJB's Avatar

 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Holt
Posts: 4,673
Not something easily absorbed on New Year's Eve, or for that matter, by any lay person...
MJB
MJB is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Friday 31st December 2010, 15:18   #15
Richard Klim
-------------------------
 
Richard Klim's Avatar

 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Somerset, UK
Posts: 12,792
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJB View Post
Not something easily absorbed on New Year's Eve, or for that matter, by any lay person...
No, Mike. Can't say that I'm left any the wiser!

Just thought it might mean something to the boffins amongst us...

Richard

Last edited by Richard Klim : Friday 31st December 2010 at 15:21.
Richard Klim is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Monday 10th January 2011, 12:08   #16
David Callahan
Registered User

 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: London
Posts: 233
Other Backstroem Ficedula and evolution papers available as pdfs on his academic page;

http://www.oeb.harvard.edu/faculty/e...ocs/Niclas.htm

Cheers
D
David Callahan is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Tuesday 11th January 2011, 08:22   #17
MJB
Registered User
 
MJB's Avatar

 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Holt
Posts: 4,673
Thanks David! It's very much nitty-gritty detail research, but perhaps in the next few years that kind of work will become standard.
MJB
MJB is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Thursday 19th May 2011, 18:21   #18
Peter Kovalik
Registered User
 
Peter Kovalik's Avatar

 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Sp. Hrhov
Posts: 2,963
Timothée Bonnet, Per Kristian Slagsvold and Glenn-Peter Sætre, 2011. Genetic species identification of a Collared Pied Flycatcher from Norway. Journal of Ornithology DOI 10.1007/s10336-011-0703-4.
Abstract
Open Access
Peter Kovalik is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Friday 20th May 2011, 08:44   #19
David Callahan
Registered User

 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: London
Posts: 233
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Kovalik View Post
Timothée Bonnet, Per Kristian Slagsvold and Glenn-Peter Sætre, 2011. Genetic species identification of a Collared Pied Flycatcher from Norway. Journal of Ornithology DOI 10.1007/s10336-011-0703-4.
Abstract
Open Access
So not only are there hybrids and much intraspecific variation in Ficedula, but they can all look like each other too!
David Callahan is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Tuesday 22nd November 2011, 07:05   #20
Richard Klim
-------------------------
 
Richard Klim's Avatar

 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Somerset, UK
Posts: 12,792
Vallin et al

Vallin, Rice, Bailey, Husby & Qvarnström (in press). Positive feedback between ecological and reproductive character displacement in a young avian hybrid zone. Evolution. [abstract]
Richard Klim is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Tuesday 7th February 2012, 11:40   #21
Acrocephalus
Registered User

 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Morocco
Posts: 950
Ficedula flycatchers

Hogner, S., Sæther, S. A., Borge, T., Bruvik, T., Johnsen, A. and Sætre, G.-P. (2012). Increased divergence but reduced variation on the Z chromosome relative to autosomes in Ficedula flycatchers: differential introgression or the faster-Z effect?. Ecology and Evolution. doi: 10.1002/ece3.92
Full text (Open Access)
__________________
Mohamed
MaghrebOrnitho blog
.
Acrocephalus is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Tuesday 8th May 2012, 09:12   #22
Richard Klim
-------------------------
 
Richard Klim's Avatar

 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Somerset, UK
Posts: 12,792
Pied Flycatcher

Both, Robinson & van der Jeugd (in press). Long-distance dispersal in migratory pied flycatchers Ficedula hypoleuca is relatively common between the UK and the Netherlands. J Avian Biol. [abstract]
Richard Klim is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Thursday 25th October 2012, 07:58   #23
jacana
Will Jones
 
jacana's Avatar

 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Uppsala, Sweden
Posts: 4,529
Been waiting for this for some time. From the good folk at Uppsala University.

Ellegren et. al. (2012) The genomic landscape of species divergence in Ficedula flycatchers

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal...ture11584.html
__________________
Latest Lifer: King Eider (2072)
Latest UK Lifer: Ross's Gull (318)
Latest Sweden Lifer: King Eider (266)
Latest World 2019: Northern Gannet (217)
jacana is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Wednesday 31st October 2012, 06:49   #24
Richard Klim
-------------------------
 
Richard Klim's Avatar

 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Somerset, UK
Posts: 12,792
Pied Flycatcher

Leskinen, Laaksonen, Ruuskanen, Primmer & Leder (in press). The proteomics of feather development in pied flycatchers (Ficedula hypoleuca) with different plumage coloration. Mol Ecol. [abstract]
Richard Klim is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Wednesday 2nd January 2013, 11:51   #25
Richard Klim
-------------------------
 
Richard Klim's Avatar

 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Somerset, UK
Posts: 12,792
European Ficedula flycatchers

Backström, Sætre & Ellegren 2013. Inferring the demographic history of European Ficedula flycatcher populations. BMC Evol Biol 13:2. [abstract] [pdf]
Richard Klim is offline  
Reply With Quote
Advertisement
Reply


Thread Tools
Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Muscicapa or Ficedula mb1848 Bird Identification Q&A 8 Friday 18th September 2009 15:02
Ficedula Flycatcher Spain JoanT Bird Identification Q&A 14 Thursday 29th May 2008 17:07
Ficedula hypoleuca iberiae macrourus Bird Ringing and Banding 8 Sunday 16th March 2008 18:08
Female Ficedula flycatcher?- Malaysia Harold Stiver Bird Identification Q&A 4 Sunday 8th April 2007 17:32
Ficedula Flycatcher - a tough one lostinjapan Bird Identification Q&A 4 Wednesday 28th March 2007 14:40

{googleads}

Fatbirder's Top 1000 Birding Websites

Help support BirdForum

Page generated in 0.38357306 seconds with 39 queries
All times are GMT. The time now is 10:53.