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Bittern(?) ID Please (1 Viewer)

Hi Cyberdoc,

It's a bittern, and I'd say Yellow, though the strong shadow gives the impression of the back being darker than it probably was. Do you get Little there? Any other pics?
 
As per Grimskipp, the following bitterns would be expected in Kashmir:

Ixobrychus minutus [Little Bittern]
Botaurus stellaris [Great Bittern]
 
Don't know enough about Yellow Bittern , but if the choice is between Little & Great then this is a Little for sure. Also, definitely not any kind of Pond Heron.

James
 
Agree with James, it is an Ixobrychus species, therefore if your list is right, most likely little bittern. Definitely not great bittern or an Ardeola (pond heron) species.
 
JWN Andrewes said:
Don't know enough about Yellow Bittern , but if the choice is between Little & Great then this is a Little for sure. Also, definitely not any kind of Pond Heron.

James
Click to expand...

Yes, I agree. This looks good for Little. I was assuming you get Yellow, but perhaps you are too far west.

Dave
 
Yeah Lttle Bittern sorry.
I was gonna make a sneaky edit to my post but defo, between the two, its a Little Bittern.
 
Hi,
This is like opening a can of worms, but inspite of it being out of range I think we cannot eliminate Yellow Bittern in this case. There are features here like the overall colouration and shape to tip the scale towards Yellow.
A Yellow Bittern would be a great rarity and interesting record for the species and the area. I think it is worth focusing on the bird ( forgetting location for a moment) and satisfying ourselves that it cannot be a Yellow Bittern. I am not so sure and would love to hear from you.
Regards,
Sumit
 
CyberDoc said:
Another picture uploaded at:

http://www.kashmirnetwork.com/birds/unknown/bittern.jpg

Now that Sumit mentions it as a possibility, the Yellow Bittern illustration in Grimskipp [Birds of the Indian Subcontinent] matches the photograph pretty accurately. Quite interesting.
Click to expand...
I also think it is a yellow bitten -i know i am a newbie and the bird may be rare but diffen. rememberd seing this bird at Wular Lake(sopore) in 1979-in July.I thank the pic ,may have been over exposed or some pegment lack.I will try to find the photo i took during that time-which may not be easy for it has been-26yrs now(a cheap camera which was very expencive to me at that time being a student-.)Sumit is right i think.Regards.
 
quite like Yellow

which is often seen in East China.But I havent seen any Little which lives in West China,so ……not sure
 
Sumit said:
Hi,
This is like opening a can of worms, but inspite of it being out of range I think we cannot eliminate Yellow Bittern in this case. There are features here like the overall colouration and shape to tip the scale towards Yellow.
A Yellow Bittern would be a great rarity and interesting record for the species and the area. I think it is worth focusing on the bird ( forgetting location for a moment) and satisfying ourselves that it cannot be a Yellow Bittern. I am not so sure and would love to hear from you.
Regards,
Sumit
Click to expand...

That's helpful input Sumit, as is the other photo you uploaded CyberDoc. The second picture lacks the shadowing effect of the first, and shows that the back is in fact as dark as it looks on the first picture. This convinces me that the bird is a Little and not Yellow Bittern. I have had very little experience of Little (!), but lots of Yellow, and I've never seen one with a crown and back as dark brown/blackish as this bird shows.

Just for comparison, I've uploaded a picture of a Yellow Bittern I took in January this year in Malaysia. I get the impression from these pics that your bird has a stouter-based and possibly shorter bill than my bird, and the culmenary ridge is certainly darker, though that may not be a consistent enough feature to be useful.

Hope this helps,

Dave
 

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Dave B said:
That's helpful input Sumit, as is the other photo you uploaded CyberDoc. The second picture lacks the shadowing effect of the first, and shows that the back is in fact as dark as it looks on the first picture. This convinces me that the bird is a Little and not Yellow Bittern. I have had very little experience of Little (!), but lots of Yellow, and I've never seen one with a crown and back as dark brown/blackish as this bird shows.

Just for comparison, I've uploaded a picture of a Yellow Bittern I took in January this year in Malaysia. I get the impression from these pics that your bird has a stouter-based and possibly shorter bill than my bird, and the culmenary ridge is certainly darker, though that may not be a consistent enough feature to be useful.

Hope this helps,

Dave
Click to expand...
Thanks Dave. That was very useful. I have, like many others who have responded, wide experience with Yellow and limited experience with Little. It would be nice if members who have experience with Little comment on the likelihood of the bird being of that species. Colour is affected by lighting, but even then I would normally expect a male Little to have much darker mantle and scapulars. As you can see from the attached, this Yellow almost matches the shade of Cyberdoc's bird.
I am seriously interested in eliminating Yellow because that could raise all kinds of range related discussions. The Little is at home where the pic was shot.
Cheers!
Sumit
 

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Sumit said:
Thanks Dave. That was very useful. I have, like many others who have responded, wide experience with Yellow and limited experience with Little. It would be nice if members who have experience with Little comment on the likelihood of the bird being of that species. Colour is affected by lighting, but even then I would normally expect a male Little to have much darker mantle and scapulars. As you can see from the attached, this Yellow almost matches the shade of Cyberdoc's bird.
I am seriously interested in eliminating Yellow because that could raise all kinds of range related discussions. The Little is at home where the pic was shot.
Cheers!
Sumit
Click to expand...


Hi Sumit,

This may be a can of worms, but it is a very educational one!

I don't have any literature to hand that compares minutus to sinensis , so perhaps there are known distinguishing features that I am not aware of.

The only resource I have access to is the net. From some googling, I have found that the culmen colour does not appear to be a useful distinguishing feature, and I have found nothing conclusive regarding the thickness of the base of the bill.

Light is, as you say, a powerful influence affecting apparent colour. Your excellent picture is taken slightly into the sun, so I would expect the back colour to look darker than in neutral conditions. (The copy of the same image in the Oriental Bird Image database looks slightly less contrasty). On the other hand, CyberDoc's pics are in full direct sunlight, thus possibly making the back appear paler than in neutral conditions.

One feature that I have noticed in my google search is the tertial and inner greater covert colour. On minutus this appears to be very dark, contrasting strongly with the rest of the wing coverts, whereas on sinensis, though they may be slightly darker and warmer than the rest of the wing coverts, there is never a strong contrast such as on minutus . Your picture is a good example of this difference, when compared with CyberDoc's pics.

So, I am still tentatively of the opinion that CyberDoc's bird is minutus , but like you, would like to hear from others more familiar with that species.

Does anyone else know how to differentiate Little and Yellow Bitterns, especially when not in adult breeding plumage and when not in range?

An intriguing puzzle!

Dave
 
Dave B said:
Hi Sumit,

So, I am still tentatively of the opinion that CyberDoc's bird is minutus , but like you, would like to hear from others more familiar with that species.


Dave
Click to expand...

Hi Dave,
Thanks for your detailed reply. I recommend that we leave this as a Little Bittern unless there are strong arguments against it. That also takes care of the range issues.
Best,
Sumit
 
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