What do we want? (Zen) (1 Viewer)

Steve C · Jan 21, 2009

For some period of time before I recieved the ZEN ED binoculars, Charles from Zen Ray and I have sent various e-mail communication back and forth. I would be absolutely dumbfounded if Kevin Purcell and probably FrankD have not done the same thing. The point is Charles is paying attention here. I think this might be a good opportunity for the BF membership to chime in with what sort of stuff isn't there we'd like. Sure, that will be a wish list far too big for any one company to attempt to bite off, especially with the economic situation being what it is. However innovation and competition is going to ultimately determine who is going to be solvent at the end of the crisis. So giving the user base what they would like might not be a bad place to go. Providing of course the world does not end on December 21, 2012, if one listens to the Mayas and others.

So here is some of my back and forth with Charles;
How about a 7x36 of the ZEN ED optical quality.
How about a 7x42 ZEN ED quality
How about offering both the current slower focus rate, as well as one with a 1.25-1.5 turn rate.
How about offering repellent coatings, either standard or optional.
How about the same optics in a standard roof prism format
There are others, but you get the drift I'm sure.

Everyons always says "I wish they's make..." Well maybe here is a chance to sound off. I know we did when the Chinese OEM Rep piped up on another thread, but he didn't stay around long.

Response from Charles: "That's a great idea."

Tero · Jan 21, 2009

I think this will all boil down to marketing, the success. I would like to see all three of them picked up by say Eagle Optics or Optics Planet.

Promaster has been around for years, I had a couple of their tripods. Yet even they have not really gotten product out there very well. It is one think to sell to a few dozen binocular junkies, but another to get it to a wider market.

I am counting three stores and maybe eBay now carrying Promaster ED.

Stick with the 10x42, 8x42 and add maybe a 8x32. Improve the product mechanically.

Sancho · Jan 21, 2009

I want a Hawke Frontier ED 8x43 that handles stray-light as well as an "alpha", and that has water-repellent coatings. (Well I don´t really ´cos I´ll be boiled in oil if I buy any more bins but I would have liked one if I hadn´t spent a whole lot on bins recently). 7x42 would also be interesting, as would 8x32.

Kevin Conville · Jan 21, 2009

"Providing of course the world does not end on December 21, 2012, if one listens to the Mayas and others."

If that happens you'll probably regret having so many discussions of Zen binoculars

And why the upper case ZEN? Is this now an acronym for something? How about an exclamation point and bold?

ZEN!

I know, I'm being bad again :-O

Alexis Powell · Jan 21, 2009

I'd like to see a roof-prism bino with the following specs:

7x32 (or 7x35 or similar) so as to have a ~5mm exit pupil in a mid sized bino
open-hinge design
minimalist styling (no funky ridges, thumb indents etc)
length of ~4.5 inches and weight ~20 ounces or less
honest 16+ mm eye-relief
minimum IPD of 50 mm (or at least something less than 56 mm!)
ED glass and appropriate design to minimize chromatic aberration
strap lugs placed so bino hangs flat against chest and so lugs don't interfere with hand
450 ft field of view
5 foot or less close focus
lots of design effort to minimize contrast-robbing stray light issues
large radius focus knob with 1 turn from closest to farthest distance (similar to Zeiss 8x32 FL)
well-recessed objective lenses

Looking it over, I guess I'm asking for a ~$400 open-hinge 7x version of the Zeiss 8x32 FL. More generally, what I'd like to see in new bino designs are smaller minimum IPD than is currently standard in roofs, more eye-relief than is currently standard in 8x32 designs, and more attention to minimizing stray light than is seen in sub-alpha level roofs.

--AP

DHB · Jan 21, 2009

I like Alexis' blueprint. +1

Steve C · Jan 21, 2009

Kevin Conville said:
"Providing of course the world does not end on December 21, 2012, if one listens to the Mayas and others."

If that happens you'll probably regret having so many discussions of Zen binoculars

And why the upper case ZEN? Is this now an acronym for something? How about an exclamation point and bold?

ZEN!

I know, I'm being bad again :-O

ZEN only because ZEN is the model designation and I was too lazy to type ED, or maybe I forgot to. I didn't type Promaster/Hawke/ZEN ED because I figured only the ZEN guy might be tuned into all of this.

Hopefully al little ZEN discusssion might ward this all off. Who knows.

Alexis,

Me too.

falcondude · Jan 21, 2009

Alexis, add another vote here, except

1. I like the real/functional thumb indents that works. Have seen some thumb inprint on some binooculars. Those just turn me off.
2. Larger eyepiece

For 32 or 36mm binos, it shouldn't be an issue to get down to 5ft close focus since their 43mm is already at 2m (7ft?). It will be a real shame if they don't.

DHB · Jan 21, 2009

Oh I just noticed one thing I don't like in Alexis' plan. I don't like that quick of focus. 1.25-1.5 turns is just right. 1 turn is too quick and 2 is too slow.
Copy the old Leica Trinovid BN with a 20oz weight and superior optics and I'll be HAPPY.

Steve C · Jan 21, 2009

DHB said:
Copy the old Leica Trinovid BN with a 20oz weight and superior optics and I'll be HAPPY.

The Swift Eaglet 7x36, with the exception of a much smaller fov pretty well does that. The combination of the Swift Eaglet with the 6.5x32 Fury FOV with ED optics is one of the things I suggested to Charles. Anyway, I'd buy one like that. Closed hinge or open bridge, whatever is easiest to produce. FOV about 8.5*

Another thing it seems that might get some use is the introduction of something along the lines of the Nikon EII. Good quality porro prisms are just about gone. There are small porro enclosures as used in the Yosemite and Raptor out there that might be starting places.

Alexis Powell · Jan 21, 2009

DHB said:
Oh I just noticed one thing I don't like in Alexis' plan. I don't like that quick of focus. 1.25-1.5 turns is just right. 1 turn is too quick and 2 is too slow.
Copy the old Leica Trinovid BN with a 20oz weight and superior optics and I'll be HAPPY.

You might still disagree with me, but please note that my specification is for the amount that the knob must turn to focus from near to infinity, not the total amount that it is capable of turning. Also, I specified that the focus knob be large in diameter. Such a design allows for rapid yet precise focusing (e.g. Zeiss 8x32 FL, Leica 8x32 Ultravid). A small diameter low ratio focus knob that requires several turns can also allow for rapid focusing because it can be spun many times with a single finger pull (e.g. Pentax 6.5x21 Papilio), but I prefer the large knob with modest ratio design because it is easier to prefocus intuitively (by feel). I agree that a average to large knob with high ratio design (e.g. Nikon 8x32 LXL, older Bausch & Lomb 8x42 Elite) is not desirable. I find a large knob that requires 1.5 turns to be quite slow (e.g. older version of Swarovski 8.5x42 EL). I like the focus speed and precision of the Zeiss 8x32 FL quite a bit, and if memory serves, it focuses near to far in less than one revolution. I think the Leica Trinovids and Ultravids are about the same, and the Swarovski 8x32 EL is a bit slower.

--AP

PS.

DHB said:
Copy the old Leica Trinovid BN with a 20oz weight and superior optics and I'll be HAPPY.

I did a quick check of focus revolution count on a few binos since I knew my memory might be hazy and found the following:
Leica 8x32 BA = ~0.75 rev. This should be the same ratio but with a bit less total travel as the BN you said you like.
Zeiss 8x32 FL = ~1 rev.
Swarovski 8x32 EL = ~1.25 rev.
Leica 8x42 Ultravid = ~1.125 rev
Swarovski 8.5x42 EL older slow focus version = ~2 rev

--AP

Kevin Purcell · Jan 21, 2009

Alexis Powell said:
You might still disagree with me, but please note that my specification is for the amount that the knob must turn to focus from near to infinity, not the total amount that it is capable of turning.

Another point to note is I posted on the Zen Ray thread rotation required to cover "birding range" (which I consider 3m to infinity) of the 8x Chinese ED (they all seem to be similar) is about 1.25 turns right now! The rest is overrun (for myopes) and underrun (for closer targets and hyperopes).

So I think people who want a faster rate actually want 1 turn over that range.

The other fix would be to adjust the cam system so the "close in" range is a bit more compressed. Making the "rate" variable over the range might have the desired effect of "speeding it up". I think Minox (and Steiner and I presume the other European bins makers) do something like this. Though it ads a bit of complexity (e.g. requireing two diopter adjusters on the Steiner.

I like both Steve's and Alex's ideas.

I would suspect that they might go for 32mm next. Then perhaps lower magnification.

Some real daring might take them to rather good porros too both in small, medium and large and include ED glass.

A 7x43 ZenRay ED roof or porro would be a very interesting bin.

One thing is you won't see these in stores. Like Dell and the others the marketing model for Zen Ray seems to be "selling direct". Having a good return policy say no questions asked for 30 day return (I haven't actually checked!) is good enough (or better) than seeing them in stores.

Tero · Jan 21, 2009

It takes quite a lot of advertising to sell direct. If you only have a small number of products the advertising does not pay back. Better with more supply, like the ads that multibrand stores put in birding magazines.

Kevin Purcell · Jan 21, 2009

You have to pay for play with the co-branding that's essentially the mark up.

I suspect direct advertising in birding mags, magazine reviews and word of mouth (either direct or internet forum) will help them more especially for the higher end bins.

Tero · Jan 22, 2009

I guess I could make some sort of commitment to get one of these in a 8x32, whether Zen, Promaster or other. I may need to wait a while, but I am sure one of the brands will have one within a year. But I sort of have directed my savings toward the 9x36 Vortex first.

FrankD · Jan 22, 2009

After reading through the thread I must concur that I like both Steve's and Alexis's suggestions. Alexis's are super specific for one model while Steve took the approach of naming several configurations/designs.

Myself? This is a tough one. In general I feel much as I just posted. Specifically I feel it is much easier for me to take a bin (take the Bushnell Legend porro for example) and tear it apart to tell you what I would like to see improved with it. Sometimes commenting on a bin, from scratch, can leave out alot of variables.

A 7x36 Zen Ray at about 2/3rds the length of the current model (while still maintaining all of the optical attributes of the current model...ie, wide field of view, excellent field flatness/distortion levels, low levels of color fringing, etc...) would be right up my alley. I am fairly content right now with full sized models and would probably be in the market for something a bit more compact. I do have a hard time believing that Zen Ray hasn't already considered 32 mm versions of their current lineup as that seems popular marketing strategy. Start with the big boys and then work your way down to the midsize models.

While we are at it, and since this is a "what if" type of thread I must state something I have mentioned previously. I would love to see an internal focus porro (Cascade, BD BP, etc...) with a wider field of view and the similar low levels of distortion, etc.. .that I mentioned above. Stick ED objectives in it and I would be in heaven.

8x42 Zen ED Porro

390-400 foot field of view
16-18 mm of eye relief
ED objectives
52-72 mm IPD adjustment
Twist up eyecups
Internal focus
Fully Multicoated and Bak4 prisms ofcourse
22-26 oz weight

Under $400 US. (Yes that can mean $399.

)

Now that would be a wonderful binocular!

Kevin Purcell · Jan 22, 2009

I like that porro spec.

One other direction (mentioned above) would be the 7x43 and 10x43. I know Bushnell tok this approach and got beat up by the users who wanted an 8x. Though I suspect pushing the 7x field to Zeiss 7x42 width may be an interesting challenge and unless they do that it might be less worth while going for that.

That said I wonder how much moeny is to be made in being the "Apple" of bins. The Apple strategy is to innovate and ignore the low end fight. The lowest end product is high quality product.

Perhaps a family of porros: perhaps 7x, 8x and 10x in both standard and ED objectives with a common prism enclosure (what are those Bosma porros like?) would give a family rather like the Swift 820 porros on steroids and would be pretty much a unique selling proposition. No one does porros especially design new high-end porros.

Failing that a pair of 8x ED porros at 8x32 (SEx

and 8x42mm. Or even common prisms and EPs modle and make ED 8x32 and a 10x42.

There are quite a few options here. Perhaps cutting them down to the minimum might lower the risk of trying it.

APSmith · Jan 22, 2009

A hybird Nikon SE/EII ~8x32 (or 7x32, or 8x35, etc):

- use the SE body but reduce the ER to midway between that of SE and EII (reduce blackouts)
- increase the SE FOV to ~midway between the two as well (say 430')
- add adjustable eyecups
- increase the bridge stiffness
- increase WP properties ONLY if not a compromise to view - otherwise, leave as is

APS

mikfoz · Jan 22, 2009

I want a bright pair of bins with a wide field of view that focus down to about 10cm that are light and compact but good to handle with thought-activated focussing.

Any chance of that?

Steve C · Jan 22, 2009

mikfoz said:
I want a bright pair of bins with a wide field of view that focus down to about 10cm that are light and compact but good to handle with thought-activated focussing.

Any chance of that?

Well, when I posted the thread, I wondered how long this would take. Not long it seems.

My thought was to give an optics company who has its president monitoring the proceedings some rerasonably concrete and maybe achievable wants.

Not that I have anything against humor. Or a nice digital camera built in, but let's stay real.

What do we want? (Zen) (1 Viewer)

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