Join for FREE
It only takes a minute!
Discover the ZEISS Digital Nature Hub

Welcome to BirdForum.
BirdForum is the net's largest birding community, dedicated to wild birds and birding, and is absolutely FREE! You are most welcome to register for an account, which allows you to take part in lively discussions in the forum, post your pictures in the gallery and more.

AOU-NACC Proposals 2019

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread
Old Wednesday 1st July 2020, 13:56   #101
James Jobling
Registered User

 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: East Sussex
Posts: 820
It saddens me to observe that the AOS has chosen to enter the lists of political correctness and ponder "potentially offensive eponyms and other names." If they wage war against supposed slavers, imperialists, colonialists, and genocidal regimes they will have opened Pandora's box. Do they propose to rename all those birds of the Americas which may have links to the Spanish conquistadores or to the historically aggressive US Republic which resulted in the extinction or subjugation of numerous indigenous peoples? I plead with them to concentrate on ornithology, embrace their history, and celebrate the future.
James Jobling is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Wednesday 1st July 2020, 16:23   #102
birdboybowley
Registered User
BF Supporter 2020
 
birdboybowley's Avatar

 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: W Sussex, England
Posts: 8,625
Well said James!
__________________
"...Bureaucracy is a parasite that preys on free thought and suffocates free spirit..." Douglas Adams
birdboybowley is offline  
Reply With Quote

BF Supporter 2016 2017 2018 2019 2020 Support BirdForum With A Donation

Old Wednesday 1st July 2020, 18:03   #103
andyadcock
Registered User
 
andyadcock's Avatar

 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: UK and Occasionally St Petersburg, Russia
Posts: 18,882
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirk Roth View Post
Because I was being cute.
I see, lost me there.
__________________
Andy A
andyadcock is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Wednesday 1st July 2020, 19:37   #104
andrew147
Registered User
 
andrew147's Avatar

 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 181
Quote:
Originally Posted by James Jobling View Post
It saddens me to observe that the AOS has chosen to enter the lists of political correctness and ponder "potentially offensive eponyms and other names."...
I dislike patronyms/honorifics for the reasons already outlined - they usually tell us nothing relatable or useful about the species. Some bird groups are plagued with uninformative English names - pheasants, turacos, storm petrels immediately come to mind.

However much de-colonisation of language is needed, I agree that addressing every dodgy Victorian who had a bird named after them is going to be problematic... but, it's definitely way past time that something was done about the two Hottentots - Buttonquail/Teal.

The buttonquail is easy - Fynbos Buttonquail - but what would be a good name for the duck?
__________________
Mammals: 328 (Eurasian Beaver)
Birds: 2428 (Wallcreeper)
Reptiles: 113 (Black Girdled Lizard)

Last edited by andrew147 : Wednesday 1st July 2020 at 19:41.
andrew147 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Wednesday 1st July 2020, 19:50   #105
Kirk Roth
Registered User

 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Indianapolis
Posts: 284
Quote:
Originally Posted by andrew147 View Post
I dislike patronyms/honorifics for the reasons already outlined - they usually tell us nothing relatable or useful about the species. Some bird groups are plagued with uninformative English names - pheasants, turacos, storm petrels immediately come to mind.

However much de-colonisation of language is needed, I agree that addressing every dodgy Victorian who had a bird named after them is going to be problematic... but, it's definitely way past time that something was done about the two Hottentots - Buttonquail/Teal.

The buttonquail is easy - Fynbos Buttonquail - but what would be a good name for the duck?
Khoi or Khoisan is the non-offensive way of saying the same thing - but as is obvious, naming a bird after a group of people can be just as problematic as after a single person.

Its synonym is "punctata" so maybe Black-spotted Teal?
Kirk Roth is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Wednesday 1st July 2020, 20:08   #106
andrew147
Registered User
 
andrew147's Avatar

 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 181
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirk Roth View Post
Khoi or Khoisan is the non-offensive way of saying the same thing - but as is obvious, naming a bird after a group of people can be just as problematic as after a single person.

Its synonym is "punctata" so maybe Black-spotted Teal?
I like Khoisan Teal, it's unique and offers some poetic justice.
__________________
Mammals: 328 (Eurasian Beaver)
Birds: 2428 (Wallcreeper)
Reptiles: 113 (Black Girdled Lizard)
andrew147 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Wednesday 1st July 2020, 20:14   #107
jurek
Registered User
 
jurek's Avatar

 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Switzerland/Poland
Posts: 4,355
And maybe follow what South Africans did? That is, nothing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirk Roth View Post
Naming taxa after people is inherently problematic
To you maybe, but not to scientists during the last four centuries. Yes, there are animals named after Hitler and Genghis Khan. And also after George Bush, Wile E. Coyote, Batman and Salazar Slytherin.

https://www.curioustaxonomy.net/etym/people.html
https://www.curioustaxonomy.net/etym/fiction.html

Last edited by jurek : Wednesday 1st July 2020 at 20:27.
jurek is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Wednesday 1st July 2020, 20:37   #108
andrew147
Registered User
 
andrew147's Avatar

 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 181
Quote:
Originally Posted by jurek View Post
And maybe follow what South Africans did? That is, nothing.
Well, in terms of redressing racial injustice in South Africa, I expect that re-naming birds is quite far down the list of priorities. Hopefully they'll get round to it.
__________________
Mammals: 328 (Eurasian Beaver)
Birds: 2428 (Wallcreeper)
Reptiles: 113 (Black Girdled Lizard)

Last edited by andrew147 : Thursday 2nd July 2020 at 07:54.
andrew147 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Wednesday 1st July 2020, 22:09   #109
Ian Lewis
Registered User
 
Ian Lewis's Avatar

 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Poole, Dorset
Posts: 290
Quote:
Originally Posted by andrew147 View Post
Well, in terms of redressing racial injustice in South Africa, I expect that re-naming birds is quite far down the list of priorites. Hopefully they'll get round to it.
Except of course Narina's Trogon and Klaas' Cuckoo

Ian
__________________
Latest lifer - Collared Gnatwren (8640 IOC)
Latest UK - Yelkouan Shearwater (502 IOC)
Ian Lewis is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Thursday 2nd July 2020, 00:09   #110
njlarsen
Opus Editor
 
njlarsen's Avatar

 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: St. James, Barbados
Posts: 23,811
I would rather have a species named for a person than to have species no 26 that is yellow-something Tyrant/tyrannulet/etc

Niels
__________________
Support bird conservation in the Caribbean: BirdCaribbean

Recently moved to Barbados
njlarsen is offline  
Reply With Quote

BF Supporter 2005 2006 2007 2008 2009 2010 2011 2012 2013 2014 2015 2016 2017 Support BirdForum With A Donation

Old Thursday 2nd July 2020, 00:22   #111
birdboybowley
Registered User
BF Supporter 2020
 
birdboybowley's Avatar

 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: W Sussex, England
Posts: 8,625
Definitely!! And let's not start on tanagers......!
__________________
"...Bureaucracy is a parasite that preys on free thought and suffocates free spirit..." Douglas Adams
birdboybowley is offline  
Reply With Quote

BF Supporter 2016 2017 2018 2019 2020 Support BirdForum With A Donation

Old Thursday 2nd July 2020, 05:06   #112
andyadcock
Registered User
 
andyadcock's Avatar

 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: UK and Occasionally St Petersburg, Russia
Posts: 18,882
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirk Roth View Post
Khoi or Khoisan is the non-offensive way of saying the same thing - but as is obvious, naming a bird after a group of people can be just as problematic as after a single person.

Its synonym is "punctata" so maybe Black-spotted Teal?
And we're back using foreign words again.

Khoisan /ˈkɔɪsɑːn/, or according to the contemporary Khoekhoegowab orthography Khoe-Sān (pronounced: [kxʰoesaːn]), is a catch-all term for the "non-Bantu" indigenous peoples of Southern Africa, combining the Khoekhoen (formerly "Khoikhoi") and the Sān or Sākhoen (also, in Afrikaans: Boesmans, or in English: Bushmen, ...

Hottentot is shown to have two meanings, why assume that the derogatory one is in action?

From Wiki 'both an ethnic term and a term of abuse'.
__________________
Andy A

Last edited by andyadcock : Thursday 2nd July 2020 at 05:09.
andyadcock is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Thursday 2nd July 2020, 06:42   #113
Markus Lagerqvist
Registered User
 
Markus Lagerqvist's Avatar

 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Sweden
Posts: 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by andyadcock View Post

Hottentot is shown to have two meanings, why assume that the derogatory one is in action?

From Wiki 'both an ethnic term and a term of abuse'.
Wikipedia says "Use of the term is now deprecated and considered offensive"
__________________
Latest bird lifer: Baumann's Olive Greenbul (#5,761)
Latest bird family: Donacobius (#215)
Latest mammal lifer: Cusimanse (#336)
Web page: pbase.com/lagerqvist
Markus Lagerqvist is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Thursday 2nd July 2020, 07:24   #114
andyadcock
Registered User
 
andyadcock's Avatar

 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: UK and Occasionally St Petersburg, Russia
Posts: 18,882
Quote:
Originally Posted by Markus Lagerqvist View Post
Wikipedia says "Use of the term is now deprecated and considered offensive"
Couldn't see that on the page I opened.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hottentot
__________________
Andy A
andyadcock is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Thursday 2nd July 2020, 07:41   #115
viator
Registered User
 
viator's Avatar

 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Singapore
Posts: 2,704
Quote:
Originally Posted by andyadcock View Post
Couldn't see that on the page I opened.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hottentot
You have to click on the Hottentot link on line you originally posted to a deeper discussion on it's use.
__________________
Last Lifer: Javan Scops Owl (#4186, Sep 11, 2019)
Top 3 Countries: Indonesia (709), Thailand (576), China (573)
Last 2020 Bird: Pied Bush Chat (#297, Aug 7)
www.viatorphoto.com/wildlife_galleries/birds
viator is online now  
Reply With Quote
Old Thursday 2nd July 2020, 11:47   #116
jurek
Registered User
 
jurek's Avatar

 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Switzerland/Poland
Posts: 4,355
Then follow what people elsewhere in Africa did - nothing, too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by andrew147 View Post
Well, in terms of redressing racial injustice in South Africa, I expect that re-naming birds is quite far down the list of priorities. Hopefully they'll get round to it.
Because, in Africa and anywhere, people who really are oppressed don't care about words but facts. Political correctness in language is at best a distraction, at worst a replacement.
jurek is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Thursday 2nd July 2020, 12:34   #117
andyadcock
Registered User
 
andyadcock's Avatar

 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: UK and Occasionally St Petersburg, Russia
Posts: 18,882
Quote:
Originally Posted by jurek View Post
Then follow what people elsewhere in Africa did - nothing, too.



Because, in Africa and anywhere, people who really are oppressed don't care about words but facts. Political correctness in language is at best a distraction, at worst a replacement.
Agree.

If names are to be replaced, use an English translation rather than a patronising, non English word that doesn't mean anything to anybody who will use the list.
__________________
Andy A
andyadcock is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Thursday 2nd July 2020, 13:01   #118
Nutcracker
Stop Brexit!
 
Nutcracker's Avatar

 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 20,698
Quote:
Originally Posted by andyadcock View Post
Agree.

If names are to be replaced, use an English translation rather than a patronising, non English word that doesn't mean anything to anybody who will use the list.
Actually, I'm more familiar with the word Khoisan and what it means, than I am with hot & tot, which (other than part of the name of a duck) doesn't really mean anything to me - and is also a non-English word originally
Nutcracker is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Thursday 2nd July 2020, 13:14   #119
andyadcock
Registered User
 
andyadcock's Avatar

 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: UK and Occasionally St Petersburg, Russia
Posts: 18,882
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nutcracker View Post
Actually, I'm more familiar with the word Khoisan and what it means, than I am with hot & tot, which (other than part of the name of a duck) doesn't really mean anything to me - and is also a non-English word originally ;)
Where did I suggest that it was an English word?

I was speaking generally and I'm sure you're in a small minority of people who have heard the word 'Khoisan' let alone, what it means.
__________________
Andy A
andyadcock is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Thursday 2nd July 2020, 13:27   #120
Mysticete
Registered User
 
Mysticete's Avatar

 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 3,904
Feels like the renaming of common names of birds when they refer to obviously offensive language or refer back to folks who weren't terribly great people is (literally) the least we can do. Why are so many people up in arms over the names of birds that aren't even remotely native to your country?
__________________
World: 1195, ABA: 628
Last Lifer: Connecticut Warbler
Last ABA: Connecticut Warbler
Mammal: 233 Herp: 174
Mysticete is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Thursday 2nd July 2020, 15:40   #121
andrew147
Registered User
 
andrew147's Avatar

 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 181
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mysticete View Post
Feels like the renaming of common names of birds when they refer to obviously offensive language or refer back to folks who weren't terribly great people is (literally) the least we can do. Why are so many people up in arms over the names of birds that aren't even remotely native to your country?


well said!
__________________
Mammals: 328 (Eurasian Beaver)
Birds: 2428 (Wallcreeper)
Reptiles: 113 (Black Girdled Lizard)
andrew147 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Thursday 2nd July 2020, 17:59   #122
andyadcock
Registered User
 
andyadcock's Avatar

 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: UK and Occasionally St Petersburg, Russia
Posts: 18,882
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mysticete View Post
Feels like the renaming of common names of birds when they refer to obviously offensive language or refer back to folks who weren't terribly great people is (literally) the least we can do. Why are so many people up in arms over the names of birds that aren't even remotely native to your country?
Because this is supposed to be a list of common 'English' names, not a mosaic of languages that people feel are 'evocative', as I've heard said a few times. My gripe is not the name changes per se but the useage of more and more non English names.

I don't care what continent birds are on, this is supposed to be an English language list and to justify the proliferation of foreign words that are more and more regularly proposed, by pointing to the odd species such as Jacana, is in my view, unjustifiable. I have no issue with the removal of honorific names for whatever reason, I believe that the name of a bird should be at least, a little descriptive in terms of appearance or habit.

You're not righting any historical wrongs, by naming a bird in some obscure or indiginous language, or any other language for that matter.
__________________
Andy A

Last edited by andyadcock : Thursday 2nd July 2020 at 18:05.
andyadcock is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Thursday 2nd July 2020, 18:21   #123
LeNomenclatoriste
Taxonomy and zoological nomenclature
 
LeNomenclatoriste's Avatar

 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: France
Posts: 920
Quote:
Originally Posted by andyadcock View Post
Because this is supposed to be a list of common 'English' names, not a mosaic of languages that people feel are 'evocative', as I've heard said a few times. My gripe is not the name changes per se but the useage of more and more non English names.

That you give strictly English names to birds is not problematic if you don't give the same name to species or families that are not related (e.g. Flycatchers, Warbler, Bunting, Wren , Tit etc. ) That we maintain stability, I understand, but it must be consistent with current taxonomy and phylogeny and giving identical names for unrelated species make nonsense.


That's why I don't really like English bird name, not because I'm French, but because I find them vague, confusing and misleading. From there, you can hate me
( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
LeNomenclatoriste is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Thursday 2nd July 2020, 18:33   #124
andyadcock
Registered User
 
andyadcock's Avatar

 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: UK and Occasionally St Petersburg, Russia
Posts: 18,882
Quote:
Originally Posted by LeNomenclatoriste View Post
That you give strictly English names to birds is not problematic if you don't give the same name to species or families that are not related (e.g. Flycatchers, Warbler, Bunting, Wren , Tit etc. ) That we maintain stability, I understand, but it must be consistent with current taxonomy and phylogeny and giving identical names for unrelated species make nonsense.


That's why I don't really like English bird name, not because I'm French, but because I find them vague, confusing and misleading. From there, you can hate me
( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
You don't need to like our names, you have your own.

When English names were derived, the people of the day, did not have the benefit of DNA anaylsis and some birds do appear at first glance to share the characteristics of more than one species e.g Wren Babbler, what is wrong with that?
__________________
Andy A

Last edited by andyadcock : Thursday 2nd July 2020 at 18:37.
andyadcock is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Thursday 2nd July 2020, 18:43   #125
LeNomenclatoriste
Taxonomy and zoological nomenclature
 
LeNomenclatoriste's Avatar

 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: France
Posts: 920
Quote:
Originally Posted by andyadcock View Post
You don't need to like our names, you have your own.
Trou, hem, sorry, true. But, you know what I mean, in short.

Last edited by LeNomenclatoriste : Thursday 2nd July 2020 at 19:05.
LeNomenclatoriste is offline  
Reply With Quote
Advertisement
Reply


Thread Tools
Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
AOU-NACC Proposals 2016 Richard Klim Bird Taxonomy and Nomenclature 151 Wednesday 18th January 2017 01:04
AOU-NACC Proposals 2015 Richard Klim Bird Taxonomy and Nomenclature 78 Tuesday 25th October 2016 06:59
AOU-NACC proposals 2013 Richard Klim Bird Taxonomy and Nomenclature 147 Friday 28th February 2014 18:23
AOU-NACC Proposals 2011 Richard Klim Bird Taxonomy and Nomenclature 125 Wednesday 12th June 2013 16:51
AOU-NACC Proposals 2009 Richard Klim Bird Taxonomy and Nomenclature 41 Tuesday 6th April 2010 19:50

{googleads}

Fatbirder's Top 1000 Birding Websites

Help support BirdForum

Page generated in 0.20708990 seconds with 39 queries
All times are GMT. The time now is 02:57.