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Flight photos technique VS still photos (1 Viewer)

OK_Scissortail

Oklahoma State Bird
Hi everyone, well as most of you know I enjoy taking flight shots which I am improving on this which is good. The flight shots seem to come easier for me then still shots, maybe it is because that is what I like to do most. I would like to take better still bird shots. I can get detail of the bird in flight shots but not that well with still shots. I shoot with AV, 7.1 and 400 ISO. Close up or at distance I'm just not getting a very clear shot. I would think close up I should be getting a nice shot but I'm not really. Any advice is welcomed. :)
 
How about posting a shot which illustrates your problem, At 400 ISO with an IS lens you should be getting good images.
 
My guess is that your AF is miscalibrated. With BIF the focus error happens to works in your favour but with static subjects it puts the subject slightly out of focus.

You will need to perform some sort of AF test to confirm or disprove my guess. Ideally this should be at a representative distance, typical of the distances at which you see the problem. In the absence of any specific favoured distance the ideal distance for testing is at 50X focal length. For a 300mm lens that would be 15 meters (15 yards is close enough).

Funnily enough I ran a quick field test of AF today with my 1D3 and 100-400 at 400mm. You won't be able to judge the accuracy from the little picture here but viewed at 100% it looks like I may be suffering a bit of back focus. I have not yet calibrated the AF on this body/lens combination. The test was simply to focus on the post you see on the right of the image and then to look at where the DOF appeared on the path beside the post. To my eyes the area of path just behind the post looks sharpest when viewed at 100%. I'll need to perform a more controlled test with a better target and DOF indicator but this is a fair example of the sort of setup you need. If the post had been sticking out of the path it would have been far easier to judge exactly where the sharpest point was. As it is I have to guess whereabouts on the path the base of the post is aligned. That said, at 400mm and with the lens wide open the post is not that soft when viewed at 100%. I just think I might be able to squeeze a fraction more from the lens.

Shooting staggered batteries at 2m is another option but in my opinion not a very useful calibration test if most of your photography is nearer the 20m mark or so.

An alternative approach you could try is to shoot a subject with good contrast in good light - a brick wall would be perfect - facing straight on to the wall (do not shoot at an angle). AF in the usual way and then switch to Live View. Magnify at 10X and see how sharp the picture looks. Then very carefully, adjust the focus a tiny bit by hand. If you can make the image sharper than the AF managed it indicates your AF is not calibrated correctly.
 
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Thanks Tim, so I could use say a post on my deck or a fence post near the deck at so many feet and check this? I'm not sure I am going to understand all this but will try. If there is a problem with calibration how do I fix it? My photos that I take now even with birds on my deck are fuzzy. You can see the bird well enough to ID but for a gallery shot or one to frame..no way. I do a close up flight shot and photo is clear, detailed etc unless bird gets too far away of course.

I'll post the photos I get though I will have to size them to upload.
 
There is a fairly expensive AF testing tool and a video to go with it that explains the principles behind setting up an AF test. Basically, what you need is a focus target that is square on to the camera and not at an angle. You then also need some sort of scale from which you can judge exactly here the shapest point of focus is, and whether that sharp point is level with the focus target or a bit behind it. Here is the tool....

http://www.rawworkflow.com/lensalign

Scroll down the page for videos on how to use it.

Now you don't need to buy some fancy tool like this. You can make your own from bits of paper (instructions HERE) or, as I did with the post and the tarmac path, improvise. In the example with the post, the post was sufficiently square to the camera, and with sufficient high contrast detail (the white arrow against the wooden post) that it made a good target, while the rough tarmac surface allowed me to see where the sharp point of focus actually ended up - the tarmac was my "scale".

If you find you have a focus calibration error then I'm afraid it's back to Canon for the body and the lens to have them calibrated correctly and matched to each other. If you had a newer, more advanced camera such as the 50D, 1D3 or 1Ds3 then you could make focus calibration adjustments yourself. I'm afraid with the 450D you don't have that option. You also don't know whether it is the body or the lens that might be at fault, which is why you will need to send both in - assuming here is indeed a focus problem in the first place.

If you can post a good example and a bad example, both with full EXIF intact maybe we can diagnose some other problem instead. As I said, I'm only guessing that AF miscalibration is the problem. It could be something else entirely.
 
Ok, lets try with these 3 shots. The Gull flight I am reasonably happy with..not perfect but at least not blown out and head, eye and most of the body of bird looks decent. The woodpecker which was about same distance away from me is ..well I'm not real happy with it. Gull photo shot at 400 ISO 7.1 and at 300mm. Woodpecker shot at 400 ISO, 8.0 and at 300mm. Shot all at single focus AI Servo, which none were right on spot but all photos were off about the same as far as center focus. Most of my still bird shots turn out like the woodpecker no matter what location I take the photo. I am looking for the more detailed shot of the still bird with less fuzz in photo. Hope this helps.
 

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I see the shutter speed for the gull was 1/1600, which will well and truly put paid to camera shake. For the woodpecker shots there is no EXIF data. What was the shutter speed for the woodpecker? It does look good and sunny so I'm guessing also around 1/1600. If that is the case I'm still thinking AF calibration is the problem.
 
If you suspect focus problems, do this http://www.focustestchart.com/focus21.pdf the one advertised previously is far too complicated for a starter, and isnt free. Even at 1/1600 camera shake is still a possibility, it all depends on the individual. Moving objects often show no camera shake as the arms are moving, negating shake but obviously require far better technique. It would be helpful to show the focus point too, in the last shot, it looks like the top right is actually in focus.
 
Woodpecker 1/250 ..sun shining when took photo of bird..maybe more towards evening hours but still sunny with light.

I can't get the photo to re-size and then show photo info. The others did, not sure why this one won't. Center focus was on under beak, part of beak and on head from eye level down to throat.

Could any of this just be me not being steady enough? or is a focus problem? Seems like when I use my 18-55 IS lens my photos are pretty good for normal picture taking like family shots etc? Maybe problem with zoom at close up shots or camera with this lens? I'm so lost..:(

Could it be that I need to shoot on IS mode 1 instead of mode 2 for still shots on my zoom lens? The lens does have an adjustment for this.
 
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:t:
If you suspect focus problems, do this http://www.focustestchart.com/focus21.pdf the one advertised previously is far too complicated for a starter, and isnt free. Even at 1/1600 camera shake is still a possibility, it all depends on the individual. Moving objects often show no camera shake as the arms are moving, negating shake but obviously require far better technique. It would be helpful to show the focus point too, in the last shot, it looks like the top right is actually in focus.

Great post - I am sure that will come in handy - thanks for sharing
 
It could be that A1 servo moves the lens all the time even to alow for Your movment back and forth yet the woody was not really moving in relation to the camera .
1 shot and pumping the shutter would be best for this type of shot not A1 servo .
A mk3 is far better in A1 servo for still subjects but even it can have problems unles the shutter is pumped to contstantley reatain focus .
Rob.
 
Could it be that I need to shoot on IS mode 1 instead of mode 2 for still shots on my zoom lens? The lens does have an adjustment for this.
For static subjects you should use IS mode 1, which stabilises the lens both vertically and horizontally. Mode 2 is for panning and only stabilises vertical movements, not horizontal ones. For a 300mm lens on a 1.6X crop body without IS you should have a shutter speed of 1/500 or faster for hand holding. However, if you use IS on the 70-300 that should buy you 3 stops (or is it 4?) of leeway on shutter speed. In other words you should be OK down to 1/60 if you have a steady hand. Obviously that doesn't account for subject movement. Nonetheless, with IS Mode 1 engaged you should be OK at 1/250 if the subject is keeping still.

One question about the woodpecker shots - are they full frame images, resized, or crops? If they are crops then how much have you cropped? The 1/(focal length x crop factor) guidelines for shutter speed were intended for viewing "normal" photos printed at "normal" sizes and viewed from "normal2 distances. I'm not sure what values "normal" should be but I mean something like a full, uncropped image when printed no larger than 10"x8" and viewed from 12" away. Remember that when you view a 10MP image at 100% size the whole image is blown up to a size of something around 30"x20" or perhaps even more. Viewing such an image on a computer screen from 12" away is bound to reveal artefacts in noise and sharpness that were never meant to be seen under the old rules.

Here is a shot with my 100-400 at 400mm and 1/60, handheld, together with a 100% crop. The bird is a little soft when viewed at 100%, which might be down to a little camera shake or perhaps subject movement. The IS on the 100-400 is only supposed to be good for 2 stops and at 400mm on a 1.6X crop the shutter speed should be at least 1/640 without IS and 1/160 with IS, so 1/60 is pushing my luck.

To Stephen Fletcher - I was not suggesting for one minute that anyone should buy the LensAlign tool but it was a convenient way to show how focus testing should be set up and how it works, given that there are videos on the site demonstrating the tool in action. If a picture paints a thousand words then a video with commentary paints a million. The focus test chart and procedure you linked to - http://www.focustestchart.com/focus21.pdf - is little different to the one I also linked to - http://www.focustestchart.com/focus12.pdf - which was an earlier design by the same guy. I favoured the older design because it more closely mimics the design goals of the expensive tool, while costing no more than a couple of sheets of paper and some ink and glue/tape.
 
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tdodd said Mode 2 is for panning and only stabilises vertical movements, not horizontal ones.

Not strictly true. Mode 2 will stabilise in the opposite axis to the one you are panning in. If you are panning horizontally, it will stabilise in the vertical axis, and if you are panning vertically, it will stabilise in the horizontal axis.
Also the crop of the body, and sensor size, has nothing to do with shutter speed. 1/300 with a 300mm is merely a "guideline" for lens size as to minimum shutter speed to avoid shake. With some people it may be as high as 1/2000 with the same lens.

Sorry, i dont know how to quote a partial message.
 
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It could be that A1 servo moves the lens all the time even to alow for Your movment back and forth yet the woody was not really moving in relation to the camera .
1 shot and pumping the shutter would be best for this type of shot not A1 servo .
A mk3 is far better in A1 servo for still subjects but even it can have problems unles the shutter is pumped to contstantley reatain focus .
Rob.
Firstly, it is AI Servo, not A1 Servo :)

Secondly, if you focus with a dedicated focus button rather than the shutter button, you can quite happily leave the camera in AI Servo mode and just press the focus button briefly in order to emulate "One Shot" focus operation. Once you have locked focus onto the static subject there is no need to pump focus, focus continuously or do any further focusing. Your focus is set. Leave it alone unless you or the subject changes distance.

Thirdly, for a subject at a distance of 15 yards/meters shot with a 300mm lens on a 450D at f/7.1 the DOF is approx +/-12" or +/-30cm. A fractional movement by the subject or a slight sway by yourself will not have a material impact on focus accuracy. Of course, the AF needs to have locked accurately in the first place.

Given what has been said and seen so far in this thread I think we may now have a combination of three possible factors contributing to the poor IQ....

1. Focus inaccuracy;
2. Shutter speed a little too slow for the IS Mode employed;
3. Over ambitious cropping.

I think that in order to establish where the problem really lies it's going to take some more controlled testing, ideally using a tripod and an inanimate object with good contrast and in good light to eliminate shake and movement from the equation. It doesn't need a test chart, just the brick wall or similar and a comparison of sharpness with AF vs sharpness using Live View at 10X and tweaked manually.
 
tdodd said Mode 2 is for panning and only stabilises vertical movements, not horizontal ones.

Not strictly true. Mode 2 will stabilise in the opposite axis to the one you are panning in. If you are panning horizontally, it will stabilise in the vertical axis, and if you are panning vertically, it will stabilise in the horizontal axis.
Also the crop of the body, and sensor size, has nothing to do with shutter speed. 1/300 with a 300mm is merely a "guideline" for lens size as to minimum shutter speed to avoid shake. With some people it may be as high as 1/2000 with the same lens.

Sorry, i dont know how to quote a partial message.
Well I've learned something about panning mode. Thanks :)

As for the 1/focal length guideline. It is true that it is a guideline and some people can shoot at speeds below the guideline while others need speeds faster than the guideline. However, the crop factor is significant and should be taken into account. The simple fact is that in order to enlarge an image from a crop sensor to the same size as an image from a full frame sensor, let's say to make a 10x8 print, the enlargement factor will be 1.6X greater. That will magnify movement/blur and also focus errors 1.6X more than an equivalent image from full frame. Remember that a 300mm lens on a cropper has a field of view equal to a 480mm lens on a full frame camera. Any angular movement (camera shake) will have an effect on the field in view 1.6X greater than the focal length implies. Forget the 300mm bit - it is immaterial - think 480mm.
 
Good Morning, ok trying to soak all this in, a lot has been written since I went to bed so trying to catch up. Thank you so much for trying to help on this everyone.

I do not use a tripod at this time so shooting hand held in this case, for me, I may need to use a higher shutter speed for still shots or change my IS mode for still shots and see if it helps? A combination of all may help me if I'm not as steady with still shots?

I have also come up with through reading the posts that I may need to be closer to subject for less cropping of the photo leaving me with better quality?

I will have to do some testing on the IS mode to see if it helps. I have just always kept it at mode 2 since I want to be ready for a sudden flight shot. I do think going up in shutter speed for still shots only might be better for me since I feel like I am not as steady as I should be. I guess for flight I do ok on mode 2 since panning and not trying to remain still on a subject. I'll do some trial and error with mode 1 and on shutter speed on a sunny day, cloudy today, and then post the results. If still problems then I'll do the focus test.

The type of photo I am after is like some in the gallery, the close up photo of small bird perched on branch, detailed and clear. Right now I am not getting a clear photo or the rich detail. I realize lenses are all different in quality but surely with my 300mm I can eventually get a nice portrait style shot of a bird.

I really like the 450D and sense that it can do far better then I am doing right now on still shots. With everyone being so helpful I am confident the answer will be found and I can begin taking some decent still shots of birds. :)
 
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