tenex
reality-based
Very awkward. How can one read a thread on this forum without having to click each individual post?
So these models have become a bad joke, S-P prisms masquerading as classic Trinovids. Disgusting.
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New Old Trinovids (2 Viewers)
- Thread starter Paskman
- Start date
So these models have become a bad joke, S-P prisms masquerading as classic Trinovids. Disgusting.
Here's my take. Leica doesn't really care, so far as in a way of appeasing we binocular nerds and so on.
So what do they really care about? Bottom line I guess? I'm imagining that for them creating an old style appearance Trinovid is all that matters, not that it's guts are true to form etc. They're probably relying on people being drawn to the retro form and not too worried about those lost sales from the likes of those contributing on this forum.
None of this surprises me, if not at least disappoints me. Reminds me, if not an entirely similar situation, to Nikon dropping the EDG or worthy replacement but that's another story.
So what do they really care about? Bottom line I guess? I'm imagining that for them creating an old style appearance Trinovid is all that matters, not that it's guts are true to form etc. They're probably relying on people being drawn to the retro form and not too worried about those lost sales from the likes of those contributing on this forum.
None of this surprises me, if not at least disappoints me. Reminds me, if not an entirely similar situation, to Nikon dropping the EDG or worthy replacement but that's another story.
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Paskman
Well-known member
The target market for these is not going to be particularly concerned over which prisms are used.
They are people who want modern optics in a classic shape, just like somebody on here a couple of years ago; they were looking for Leitz style binoculars that looked like they fitted their "retro" lifestyle and didn't care what it cost them. We live in an image conscious world.
Leica will have done their homework and worked out their market. It's the same with the new Land Rover Defender: people will buy it for its name, looks and heritage. They do not want the old unreliable one that leaked a lot, they want a modern car. They won't use it for what it can do, only for what it looks like it can do. Image and status is all that matters.
The retro Trinovids will sell well, whatever the insides are like and whatever the fans on here think. I have seen exactly the same reactions on the Land Rover forums.
Sent from my Pixel 4 using Tapatalk
They are people who want modern optics in a classic shape, just like somebody on here a couple of years ago; they were looking for Leitz style binoculars that looked like they fitted their "retro" lifestyle and didn't care what it cost them. We live in an image conscious world.
Leica will have done their homework and worked out their market. It's the same with the new Land Rover Defender: people will buy it for its name, looks and heritage. They do not want the old unreliable one that leaked a lot, they want a modern car. They won't use it for what it can do, only for what it looks like it can do. Image and status is all that matters.
The retro Trinovids will sell well, whatever the insides are like and whatever the fans on here think. I have seen exactly the same reactions on the Land Rover forums.
Sent from my Pixel 4 using Tapatalk
Will they have a better view than the Trinovid HD? Probably not, and not waterproof either.
Somehow I think their mission so to speak is something entirely different.
To be fair the EDG was introduced in the USA in 2008 with an open frame body and in 2010 it was changed into its current single hinge construction and introduced into Europe. The optics in it are almost 12 years old now.
On November 13, 2019 Nikon introduced Binocular Telescopes: 20x120IV/25x120.
https://www.nikon.com/news/2019/1113_20x120iv_25x120_01.htm
IMO Nikon is overdue for the release of a worthy replacement for the EDGs!
Bob
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Not to unhinge the Leica topic but regarding the EDG while it may be 12 years old its optics are still competitive (still my favourite). I agree that it may be due for a revamp or upgrade (if possible) but it looks as though this won't happen, certainly not any time soon, and that Nikon has changed tact with a mid tier quality/price product filling the top spot.
So how does this scenario share anything with the retro Trinovid situation? My thoughts are that in both instances these companies are driven by the bottom line and not to provide the best or most exciting product. After all sales figures and profits rule. That said it's likely Nikon will do better out of the MHG than they did with the EDG and Leica will do better out of the retro Trinovid in building it the way they are rather than how we'd like for reasons summed up well by Paskman.
Kevin Conville
yardbirder
During the first go round of the "new, old Trinovids" I was pretty jazzed and would have been in line to buy a pair.
Now, I have a wide field lightweight binocular that fills the niche the 1st version Trin would have, in the 8x42 Monarch HG. And now this?
And the Leica still isn't waterproof.
Other than nostalgia and style, heavy on style, I don't see the point.
Now, I have a wide field lightweight binocular that fills the niche the 1st version Trin would have, in the 8x42 Monarch HG. And now this?
And the Leica still isn't waterproof.
Other than nostalgia and style, heavy on style, I don't see the point.
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Chosun Juan
Given to Fly
Leica is no doubt after a fashionable/nostalgic crowd.
I think I can say before the Trinovid release that I'd choose your MHG over the retro Trinovid as the better (birding) binoculars.
I wonder how much they would have cost if they made them in an updated form of the original (waterproof as well would be nice)? Likely more than the Noctivid, not to say they'd perform better.
They do look nice though, I guess that's what it's all about in the end. Perhaps that was the mission to accomplish?
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tenex
reality-based
There does seem to be a strange trend these days involving oxymoronic "updated classics" in everything from clothing to cars. People are so out of touch with reality that they can't even get nostalgia right anymore. Still I'd be surprised if these Trinovids sell well, even in Leica terms. Despite being fully sealed (as these aren't), the leather Ultravids have remained so peripheral that their optics have never been upgraded to match the armored ones.
The Defender case is a bit different. The new one doesn't really look like the classic, or appear more capable than any other SUV; if it sells well (in the West, probably not worldwide as before) it will be because LR made such a mistake with the ugly new Discovery that buyers just want something more like the previous version. And few people live near real 4WD trails, whereas many use binoculars for all sorts of things. By the way, we've been on mountain and desert trails for 20 years in a D90 that's been very reliable and hardly leaks at all, and gets many compliments as they're rare in the USA. I doubt that a new "Defender" would be much noticed in comparison.
Paskman
Well-known member
I have had 3 Landys and they have all leaked - try the UK's weather:t: 99% of Land Rover buyers in the UK never go near leaving the tarmac, they might park with one set of wheels on the grass during the school run. I live in the country and all of the farmers use either pick-ups for work. The Land Rover market is all about image and "heritage". This is exactly the same market these new/old Trinovids are aimed at; the baby boomers wanting to relive what the didn't have during their youth. They will sell well, not everyone is into the same as the enthusiasts on here, we are not the target market for exactly the reasons that have been stated (i.e moaned about
)
Renze de Vries
Well-known member
I’m immensely enjoying this discussion. Especially for the contributions by F88 and Paskman. They motivated me to really question my opinions, judgements, loyalties, taste and all kinds of other motives in play here.
Also, I was reminded of the past, going back to the early nineteensixties when the Leitz Trinovid series was introduced to the market. It looks like history repeats itself. At that point Leica completely stopped production of their porro line, including the wonderful 8x30 Binuxit, and promoted their Trinovids as the last word in optical design, while in fact – as any expert would tell you – they were optically worse than their predecessors. How about that! Of course what was happening was that Leica had sensed a demand for luxury items, things to simply enjoy, things to be used as toys instead of tools. Those Trinovids were aimed at a completely different crowd than the customers of the past: hunters, soldiers, ornithologists. Of course those Trinovids could be used as birding binoculars with good results, but the fact was, nobody did. That is, with a few exceptions here and there: excentrics.
So indeed, nothing much has changed. Not in the Leica policy at least. I happen to see some consistency.
Renze
Also, I was reminded of the past, going back to the early nineteensixties when the Leitz Trinovid series was introduced to the market. It looks like history repeats itself. At that point Leica completely stopped production of their porro line, including the wonderful 8x30 Binuxit, and promoted their Trinovids as the last word in optical design, while in fact – as any expert would tell you – they were optically worse than their predecessors. How about that! Of course what was happening was that Leica had sensed a demand for luxury items, things to simply enjoy, things to be used as toys instead of tools. Those Trinovids were aimed at a completely different crowd than the customers of the past: hunters, soldiers, ornithologists. Of course those Trinovids could be used as birding binoculars with good results, but the fact was, nobody did. That is, with a few exceptions here and there: excentrics.
So indeed, nothing much has changed. Not in the Leica policy at least. I happen to see some consistency.
Renze
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Reminds me of mechanical brand watches that promote a lot of "heritage" and "legend" marketing stuff (sometimes pure fantasy...) but often use industrial movements without any specific charme these days. The original movements had made the difference back then and founded the reputation. Many people don't seem to care.
Binoculars are about optics. I would love some retro-models being built new. But using the original lense systems please. Even improved ones with new glass would be acceptable. But this looks just like another missed opportunity to me.
Binoculars are about optics. I would love some retro-models being built new. But using the original lense systems please. Even improved ones with new glass would be acceptable. But this looks just like another missed opportunity to me.
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Hermann
Well-known member
I was wrong. Contrary to what my dealer told me a couple of days ago, the new Trinovids will only be sold bei Leica and the Leica Stores.
That's what my dealer told me today, and he wasn't amused.
Hermann
Hermann
Well-known member
Maybe so, but after the roofs were introduced, many consumers voted with their feet:They went for the roofs that - to them - seemed "more modern". That the roofs were optically inferior didn't seem to matter. As a result most other manufacturers switched to roofs even though roofs were clearly inferior until Zeiss invented the phase coatings more than twenty years later. (Nowadays roofs are not that inferior to well-made porros anymore, even though I'd argue porros still have a clear-cut advantage over ANY roof, even a roof with AK prisms.)
BTW, Zeiss was a slightly different case, they continued to offer some of their optically excellent porros for a long time after the switch to roofs. The 8x30B for instance was in production until 1978, long after Zeiss started making the Dialyt 8x30B and 10x40B roofs. In the end the costs of making these porros with their air-spaced achromats (which had to be adjusted by hand) was too high and the number of units sold dropped so much that Zeiss discontinued them.
I'd love to see Zeiss offering them again, with modern glass types and modern coatings. And before anyone complains about the lack of waterproofing of porros: The Zeiss porros had a rubber seal between the eyepieces and the body of the binoculars that made them effectively waterproof.
Hermann
tenex
reality-based
I agree. The interesting question is: if you're really going for nostalgia, why not do modern updates of classic porros instead? That would be wonderful, and clearly distinct from modern models even at a distance. That postwar generation grew up around porros, as I still did in the 1960s. I have no emotional attachment to those expensive yet inferior roof designs of the period, which I seldom even saw in use, and am not sure who would.
[Edit] Actually here's another interesting question. The Leica blog alludes to their "Eye of Apollo" Trinovid monocular that went to the moon, though (unlike the famous Hasselblad) I'd never heard of it. Why didn't even NASA want a porro model that would have been sharper?
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Gijs van Ginkel
Well-known member
Herman, post 56,
As far as I know now House of Outdoor/Jan van Daalen has informed his Leica dealer, that he also was not amused and , if Leica continues to follow this policy of selling the new Trinovids only through Leica and Leica stores, he want to be taken from the Leica dealer list and all Leica models in his shop from Zagato to Trinovid will be sold out with a discount of 30% in the EU and 50% outside of the EU. That means Leica will completely disappear from his shop. Other stores I approached were still hesitating but it seems fairly likely to me that some others will follow. Personally I do not understand this Leica policy.
Gijs van Ginkel
As far as I know now House of Outdoor/Jan van Daalen has informed his Leica dealer, that he also was not amused and , if Leica continues to follow this policy of selling the new Trinovids only through Leica and Leica stores, he want to be taken from the Leica dealer list and all Leica models in his shop from Zagato to Trinovid will be sold out with a discount of 30% in the EU and 50% outside of the EU. That means Leica will completely disappear from his shop. Other stores I approached were still hesitating but it seems fairly likely to me that some others will follow. Personally I do not understand this Leica policy.
Gijs van Ginkel
