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2019 - New models EL (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter NDhunter
- Start date
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Hermann
Well-known member
NDhunter
Experienced observer
Tim: You are correct in thinking that Swarovski is ready to introduce a new flagship EL binocular.
The first EL was 1999, then the Swarovision in 2009, and no real updates from then.
This speculation has been around for months.
Jerry
Chosun Juan
Given to Fly
I'd ask the question again - inside mail or wishful thinking? but it might be a bit much for some to handle :eek!: :cat:
We've got enough smoke and mirrors over here at the moment ! :smoke:
Chosun :gh:
We've got enough smoke and mirrors over here at the moment ! :smoke:
Chosun :gh:
pbjosh
missing the neotropics
Based upon the poster's track record, smoke and mirrors.
While it has been a while since Swarovski has had a major overhaul, and while many BF members have noticed a 10 year pattern, I think there is a lot of wishful thinking going on.
Gijs van Ginkel
Well-known member
pbjosh, post 127,
Try to be in the shoes of Swarovski: not only a new design has to be developed, but only after a thourough investigation of the possible sales number.
Next step is formation of a design team to design a completely new binocular and that next to the already existing ones. It requires probably new coworkers to be hired, new machinery or, in the worst case a new building for the new binocular line. Next step is production, but first we, customers, have to be seduced to order and buy these new instruments. The sales organisation has to be organised, dealers have to be informed and given sufficient supplies and to be assured that enough instruments will be made to fill the needs of the suppliers/customers.
In the meantime a repair and maintenance crew must be ready for repairs and, as Swarovski usually does, mostly free of charge. This new line comes on top of the already existing lines, so it must be fun for organisers, but in the end of the year Swarovski has to find out if enough is earned to pay the employees, to cover the costs of publicity, repairs etc. etc. And at the end of the line enough has to be earned for a reasonable profit.
We have an expression in Dutch which says: "rupsje-nooit-genoeg"meaning "caterpillars-never-satisfied" and that is probably a good characterization of us customers.
Gijs van Ginkel
Try to be in the shoes of Swarovski: not only a new design has to be developed, but only after a thourough investigation of the possible sales number.
Next step is formation of a design team to design a completely new binocular and that next to the already existing ones. It requires probably new coworkers to be hired, new machinery or, in the worst case a new building for the new binocular line. Next step is production, but first we, customers, have to be seduced to order and buy these new instruments. The sales organisation has to be organised, dealers have to be informed and given sufficient supplies and to be assured that enough instruments will be made to fill the needs of the suppliers/customers.
In the meantime a repair and maintenance crew must be ready for repairs and, as Swarovski usually does, mostly free of charge. This new line comes on top of the already existing lines, so it must be fun for organisers, but in the end of the year Swarovski has to find out if enough is earned to pay the employees, to cover the costs of publicity, repairs etc. etc. And at the end of the line enough has to be earned for a reasonable profit.
We have an expression in Dutch which says: "rupsje-nooit-genoeg"meaning "caterpillars-never-satisfied" and that is probably a good characterization of us customers.
Gijs van Ginkel
pbjosh
missing the neotropics
Gijs,
I understand product development and product life cycles pretty well, and I agree with your post.
Perhaps it was not clear, but I was just commenting that the person who initiated the latest rumor has a track record of unfounded / unsubstantiated statements. As well I was commenting that the forums here are full of wishful thinking that certain new products are coming down the line or that we can predict when products might arrive, even though in most cases there is no actual information available. The geek side of me would love to see Noctivid and SF 8x32, and a new line from Swarovski, but that doesn't mean that I think they are imminent or believe the latest unfounded rumor.
I understand how people look at the timing of Swarovski product generations and think that a new product must be "due" but I don't think there has been any real information at all (or if there has been, I have missed it). It could well happen and it could be soon, or it could be a good ways off, but no one really knows. Similar to the Noctivid 8x32 and SF 8x32, both of which have been the subject of frequent speculation and more than a few rumors...
Cheers,
Josh
I understand product development and product life cycles pretty well, and I agree with your post.
Perhaps it was not clear, but I was just commenting that the person who initiated the latest rumor has a track record of unfounded / unsubstantiated statements. As well I was commenting that the forums here are full of wishful thinking that certain new products are coming down the line or that we can predict when products might arrive, even though in most cases there is no actual information available. The geek side of me would love to see Noctivid and SF 8x32, and a new line from Swarovski, but that doesn't mean that I think they are imminent or believe the latest unfounded rumor.
I understand how people look at the timing of Swarovski product generations and think that a new product must be "due" but I don't think there has been any real information at all (or if there has been, I have missed it). It could well happen and it could be soon, or it could be a good ways off, but no one really knows. Similar to the Noctivid 8x32 and SF 8x32, both of which have been the subject of frequent speculation and more than a few rumors...
Cheers,
Josh
Chosun Juan
Given to Fly
Gijs - that sounds like a 10 year project ! :-O
Oops! I didn't mean to add fuel to the imaginary fire ! 3
:cat:
Chosun :gh:
Chosun Juan
Given to Fly
Can we at least have HT glass and prisms for the 8x32 FL and a lighter CFRP chassis and dual density armour ?? ........... at least for 2030 ! ....... :cat:
Chosun :gh:
PYRTLE
Old Berkshire Boy
BS Alert!!!
Not for the first time either, but first for me to add to my ignore list - just idle fake news. As our Delia Smith once said, " Where are you?"
A2GG
Beth
There was a time when I thought this was a good idea, but now that I own one I don't want to see any changes or updates (!) It's practically flawless the way it is now. I don't want to see the fluoride glass replaced. It's obviously very high quality. The image is really clean, bright and super sharp.
Colors are pretty neutral, maybe slightly cold.
I don't think it can get any better really or at least I don't think it will be noticeable. I'm super impressed with it after using it the past couple weekends. Zeiss tech support confirmed to me over the phone a few years back they still update the FL with latest coatings when available.
My FL serial# is 2019 and I wonder when they may have added the most recent coating upgrade.
I say don't fix it if it's not broken.
Chosun Juan
Given to Fly
GiGi - don't worry. Zeiss asleep at the wheel. If it hasn't happened by now it ain't gonna happen. The HT glass would be in addition to the FL glass. Even still improvements very hard to notice - especially for existing owners. Glad you've got a lighter weight bin that it working well for you - and welcome to the Quick Focus club !
Is that what tipped the balance away from that lovely tan 8x32 SV ? :cat:Chosun :gh:
A2GG
Beth
GiGi - don't worry. Zeiss asleep at the wheel. If it hasn't happened by now it ain't gonna happen. The HT glass would be in addition to the FL glass. Even still improvements very hard to notice - especially for existing owners. Glad you've got a lighter weight bin that it working well for you - and welcome to the Quick Focus club !
Chosun :gh:
ok, if it's in addition then it could be called FL HT
The faster focus was one reason along with shorter length and slightly lighter weight. Really the final decision resulted from being fatigued from thinking about it all too much. I just decided to go with the FL since I was familiar with it and knew it would work well for me ... I was over-thinking everything and wanted an end to it (!)
I made a good choice and I'm feeling satisfied with what I have and will be 'stuck with' for quite some years. :cat:
I'm still keeping the 8x30 CL in tan o
Chosun Juan
Given to Fly
ok, if it's in addition then it could be called FL HT
Maybe they will do an Injection-molded Graphite version called the "FLIGHT" :-O
Enjoy :t:
Chosun :gh:
SeldomPerched
Well-known member
If they did the injection-molding (I like that US spelling!) but did without the graphite my mind thinks FILTH. Even if it doesn't really work if you say the whole words in that order!
Tom
God forbid there should ever be improvements in binoculars (in particular the specific model I own)! But I have to admit... the little plastic alpha, frankly, seems a tricky one to improve upon. Weight, field of view, handling, and pretty much every aspect of image quality are all very good if not excellent. (I dislike the rainguard, but that's a minor thing.) The only niggle I've found myself is a certain fiddlyness when observing distant targets, but that's likely not an issue for most owners. Increasing field of view would likely mean increasing size/bulk and weight - it would mean going to a different concept of binocular altogether (which may eventually happen, if the current SFs are anything to go by...). I guess those fine qualities are the reason why this model has stood the test of time - why it is still in production while all the other FLs are not. The 8x32 has to be one of the two stand-out classics in the FL range (to me, anyway) along with the 7x42, the last of the great Zeiss 7x42s.
A2GG
Beth
They have made improvements in the rainguard over the years. I read about it recently somewhere (here I think). The first one was too loose, the next one too tight and the most recent one not too loose or tight. I have the latest version and it fits nicely. I remember the green FL I tried in store which was 2010 (or earlier) model had the super loose rainguard and it seemed useless to me.
I always hate when a product I like and have purchased loyally over time is suddenly changed and the "new and improved" changes make the product worse or in some way unusable for me. Can't tell you how many times I've thought...why did they change it ?!! ... It was just right the way it was ! ugh
That's my thinking with the 32mm FL. I think updating the coatings over the years is enough. There's little chance of any drastic changes anyway. It will be discontinued when the SF 32 eventually comes out.
John A Roberts
Well-known member
I've been slow to contribute as I've been otherwise occupied for most of the week. However . . .
In general, premium manufacturers use their flagship line to showcase what’s possible - or more correctly what’s practicable
i.e. consistently possible within practical constraints, including economic considerations (e.g. see Gijs’ observations in post #128)
As I’ve noted previously with the EL series, the bar was set with:
- the unique physical design of the original EL (the open bridge/ axle-less body), and then
- the unique optical combination of the EL SV (the ‘Swarovision’ concept of field flattener lenses, HD glass, long eye relief and maximised transmission)
(see: https://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=377255 )
So the problem now for Swarovski is: What’s going to meet expectations in terms of similar significant innovation?
There are of course similar expectations of Leica and Zeiss. However it’s arguable that the premium binocular market does expect more from Swarovski
e.g. both the 2015 Zeiss Victory SF and the 2016 Leica Noctivid are essentially EL SV alternatives
- though the SF is notable for its altered balance and the consequent ease of supporting its weight i.e. the ‘Ergobalance’ concept
But if the SF had been introduced by Swarovski, would it have been considered a satisfactory successor to the EL SV?
In this regard Swarovski may be a victim of it’s previous successes
In terms of possible directions for Swarovski:
Electronics
The most significant increase to practical performance in any flagship line, would be by the inclusion of Image Stabilisation technology
- especially so when used while standing without any other support
However, it would:
- necessarily add significantly to both bulk and weight (e.g. the Canon 10x40 IS is the size and weight of a conventional 10x50, and in a far less ergonomic package), and
- as with all electronics have reliability, durability, longevity and obsolescence issues
I suspect that market research indicates that for most potential buyers, the ephemeral nature of electronics,
is seen as incompatible with the primary values of durability and longevity associated with premium binoculars
i.e. incompatible with a product which would otherwise have a useful life expectancy of several decades
It’s notable that the clear advantage of IS (whoops, a pun!), does not seem to have been compelling in terms of its effect on premium binocular sales
e.g. on this forum, the much cheaper Canon 10x40 IS is the preferred choice of a pragmatic - but very small - minority
External Envelope
I previously offered a suggestion as how to significantly decrease the external size of the EL series, via the use of eyepiece focusing (as used on the original Leitz v2 Trinovid design)
- though with the likely trade-off of a greater minimum focus distance (see post #5 in the link above)
Would such a ‘lean and mean’ body be enough to meet expectations of a new generation EL?
- and coincidentally (!), what effect will today’s announcement by Leica of the relaunch of the Leitz v2 Trinovids have on such a possibility?
(see the link from the Leica Nature blog, per Dipped: https://leica-nature-blog.com/leica-trinovid-we-are-proud-of-this-proof-of-quality/ )
Optics
There is probably the least significant potential here. Looking at the cross-section views of various premium optics, what’s striking is their general conformity to common patterns
(with the main differences being in eyepiece complexity, depending on whether a flat field view is required)
i.e. optically there’s generally one best way to accomplish a desired outcome, and nothing to be gained by unnecessarily complex alternatives
The greatest restriction on significantly increased optical performance, is that the market wants high performance in a relatively compact and light weight package
e.g. the Nikon WX line shows what’s possible, but with such a substantial increase in size and weight as to make it a very limited niche product (even ignoring the IF eyepieces)
(see the image of a 10x50 WX verses a 10x50 EL SV, from hk112 on a Cloudy Nights thread: https://www.cloudynights.com/topic/622620-nikon-wx-experience/ )
Perhaps the possibilities for significant binocular innovation - within the twin constraints of compactness and light weight - have reached a plateau
Finally, while the two previous EL introductions were spaced 10 years apart, such coincidence does not indicate a commitment to a 10 year product cycle
. . . we can only wait
John
In general, premium manufacturers use their flagship line to showcase what’s possible - or more correctly what’s practicable
i.e. consistently possible within practical constraints, including economic considerations (e.g. see Gijs’ observations in post #128)
As I’ve noted previously with the EL series, the bar was set with:
- the unique physical design of the original EL (the open bridge/ axle-less body), and then
- the unique optical combination of the EL SV (the ‘Swarovision’ concept of field flattener lenses, HD glass, long eye relief and maximised transmission)
(see: https://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=377255 )
So the problem now for Swarovski is: What’s going to meet expectations in terms of similar significant innovation?
There are of course similar expectations of Leica and Zeiss. However it’s arguable that the premium binocular market does expect more from Swarovski
e.g. both the 2015 Zeiss Victory SF and the 2016 Leica Noctivid are essentially EL SV alternatives
- though the SF is notable for its altered balance and the consequent ease of supporting its weight i.e. the ‘Ergobalance’ concept
But if the SF had been introduced by Swarovski, would it have been considered a satisfactory successor to the EL SV?
In this regard Swarovski may be a victim of it’s previous successes
In terms of possible directions for Swarovski:
Electronics
The most significant increase to practical performance in any flagship line, would be by the inclusion of Image Stabilisation technology
- especially so when used while standing without any other support
However, it would:
- necessarily add significantly to both bulk and weight (e.g. the Canon 10x40 IS is the size and weight of a conventional 10x50, and in a far less ergonomic package), and
- as with all electronics have reliability, durability, longevity and obsolescence issues
I suspect that market research indicates that for most potential buyers, the ephemeral nature of electronics,
is seen as incompatible with the primary values of durability and longevity associated with premium binoculars
i.e. incompatible with a product which would otherwise have a useful life expectancy of several decades
It’s notable that the clear advantage of IS (whoops, a pun!), does not seem to have been compelling in terms of its effect on premium binocular sales
e.g. on this forum, the much cheaper Canon 10x40 IS is the preferred choice of a pragmatic - but very small - minority
External Envelope
I previously offered a suggestion as how to significantly decrease the external size of the EL series, via the use of eyepiece focusing (as used on the original Leitz v2 Trinovid design)
- though with the likely trade-off of a greater minimum focus distance (see post #5 in the link above)
Would such a ‘lean and mean’ body be enough to meet expectations of a new generation EL?
- and coincidentally (!), what effect will today’s announcement by Leica of the relaunch of the Leitz v2 Trinovids have on such a possibility?
(see the link from the Leica Nature blog, per Dipped: https://leica-nature-blog.com/leica-trinovid-we-are-proud-of-this-proof-of-quality/ )
Optics
There is probably the least significant potential here. Looking at the cross-section views of various premium optics, what’s striking is their general conformity to common patterns
(with the main differences being in eyepiece complexity, depending on whether a flat field view is required)
i.e. optically there’s generally one best way to accomplish a desired outcome, and nothing to be gained by unnecessarily complex alternatives
The greatest restriction on significantly increased optical performance, is that the market wants high performance in a relatively compact and light weight package
e.g. the Nikon WX line shows what’s possible, but with such a substantial increase in size and weight as to make it a very limited niche product (even ignoring the IF eyepieces)
(see the image of a 10x50 WX verses a 10x50 EL SV, from hk112 on a Cloudy Nights thread: https://www.cloudynights.com/topic/622620-nikon-wx-experience/ )
Perhaps the possibilities for significant binocular innovation - within the twin constraints of compactness and light weight - have reached a plateau
Finally, while the two previous EL introductions were spaced 10 years apart, such coincidence does not indicate a commitment to a 10 year product cycle
. . . we can only wait
John
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