How often ? (1 Viewer)

JohnZ · Dec 24, 2006

Without wishing to start an almighty row and realising the importance of ringing birds may I ask if four visits, to the same place, within 8 weeks is normal practice ?
I only ask, I am being completely selfish, in that I take piccies of birds and every time the ringers arrive the birds disappear. I suspect the sight of several birds wriggling in a net may give the game away.
Thank you.

lesf · Dec 24, 2006

JohnZ said:
Without wishing to start an almighty row and realising the importance of ringing birds may I ask if four visits, to the same place, within 8 weeks is normal practice ?
I only ask, I am being completely selfish, in that I take piccies of birds and every time the ringers arrive the birds disappear. I suspect the sight of several birds wriggling in a net may give the game away.
Thank you.

We all know the importance of ringing but in many instances that I know of liitle care is taken for the well being of the birds and the ringing is carried out just for the sake of rather than scientific reason, and one ringer I know refuse now to continue for these reasons

ESTEBANNIC · Dec 25, 2006

lesf said:
We all know the importance of ringing but in many instances that I know of liitle care is taken for the well being of the birds and the ringing is carried out just for the sake of rather than scientific reason, and one ringer I know refuse now to continue for these reasons

Please do not judge the collective by one bad apple.......

A ringer who goes against the holy grail of ringing, the bird's well being first and paramount, should not be in posession of a ringing license.

Ade George · Dec 25, 2006

JohnZ said:
Without wishing to start an almighty row and realising the importance of ringing birds may I ask if four visits, to the same place, within 8 weeks is normal practice ?
I only ask, I am being completely selfish, in that I take piccies of birds and every time the ringers arrive the birds disappear. I suspect the sight of several birds wriggling in a net may give the game away.
Thank you.

Hello John, The number of visits to any one site during a given period depends on the location and time of year. So on the coast ringing migrants would occur everyday given the weather. Ringing during the winter would take place with larger intervals between sessions. Ringing a site once every two weeks is not that uncommon and may be more intensive than usual to trap birds that may not stay in the vacinity long. Birds are very intelligent and will soon realise where the nets are and with my experience fly under, around and above the nets. I believe that the time period that you mention would not have a negative effect on the birds, given that the birds come back as soon as the ringers leave. Ringers do have the well being of the birds as a priority and I am sure would not compramise this to get a few extra rings on.
Adrian

wizard · Dec 29, 2006

I know many ringers and this is not the case, they ALL put the birds welfair first. Maybe it looks far worse than it truely is, birds are hard little things & dont mind being held up side down for instance when being taken out of nets, to some who only see birds on their bird table or on a glossy calender this may seen horrific, but does no harm.
Unless of course the incident is A good case of one bad apple.

lesf said:
We all know the importance of ringing but in many instances that I know of liitle care is taken for the well being of the birds and the ringing is carried out just for the sake of rather than scientific reason, and one ringer I know refuse now to continue for these reasons

KnockerNorton · Dec 30, 2006

If it's a Constant Effort Site (CES), which is a systematic method prescribed by the BTO to standardise scientific data on populations, then I think visits are roughly monthly (you need 10 or 12 per year, can't remember exactly). So, 4 visits in 8 weeks is about right if it's an active time of year (eg a few more visits in autumn than winter).

It all depends on what the study is. Maybe the ringers mutter under their breath when photographers disturb birds that might otherwise go in their nets?! Swings and roundabouts.

lyta · Jan 1, 2007

Here in Tyne and Wear we have a fanatic who rings fortnightly in the same place and I'm sorry but its annoying as he does it on a Sunday morning and bang thats the end of the birds for a large part of the day. How are we to show what we have in our area if we lose the use of a hide every other Sunday.I understand the need for ringing but this is excessive.

KnockerNorton · Jan 2, 2007

lyta said:
Here in Tyne and Wear we have a fanatic who rings fortnightly in the same place and I'm sorry but its annoying as he does it on a Sunday morning and bang thats the end of the birds for a large part of the day. How are we to show what we have in our area if we lose the use of a hide every other Sunday.I understand the need for ringing but this is excessive.

Have you asked why he's doing it? Fortnightly is not too excessive, as it depends on where he is and why he's doing it. Perhaps he's perfectly placed to tell you exactly "what you have in your area"? And I'd bet you'd be surprised at the what turns up in his net and how long some stick around (or don't). His data will be able to tell you much more about your bird population than any amount of time spent in a hide.

Maybe just have a word with the guy and see what's going on, and maybe come to a compromise? But, at the end of the day, he can only ring with permission of whoever owns/runs the land, so take it up with them if you like.

Mark Grantham · Jan 3, 2007

Poecile said:
If it's a Constant Effort Site (CES), which is a systematic method prescribed by the BTO to standardise scientific data on populations, then I think visits are roughly monthly (you need 10 or 12 per year, can't remember exactly). So, 4 visits in 8 weeks is about right if it's an active time of year (eg a few more visits in autumn than winter).

It all depends on what the study is. Maybe the ringers mutter under their breath when photographers disturb birds that might otherwise go in their nets?! Swings and roundabouts.

Thanks for the above, and yes, CES is a proven way of monitoring populations. The same nets are set in the same areas over the same time periods year after year, and from these captures we can calculate very good estimates of adult abundance (from actual numbers caught) and productivity (proportion of the catch that are juveniles). These are fantasic measures of breeding success and are an integral part of the BTO's core monitoring. For more details, go to www.bto.org/ringing/ringinfo/ces/index.htm

BTW - CES sessions are run every 10 ten days through the season.

Mark Grantham
BTO Ringing Unit

JRE · Jan 21, 2007

I see no harm in ringing lots of birds at one site, no birds are going to be ringed twice (I would hope).

Steve Lister · Jan 21, 2007

Is the feeding station there because of the ringing operations?

Nothing wrong as far as I am concerned.

Steve

Keith Reeder · Jan 21, 2007

Jyothi, the birds might not get ringed twice, but they run the risk of repeated entrapment in the mist nets with all the stress to the birds that implies.

John isn't alone in being uncomfortable about the issue of trapping "for the sake of it".

I know about CES, but I still have misgivings.

JohnZ · Jan 21, 2007

The majority of birds in the orchard at Bough Beech are Blue Tits, Great Tits, Chaffinches and Greenfinches. There are also G.S. Woodpecker, Nuthatches and the occasional Marsh Tit but these are less frequent.
I have actually lost count but I believe that the ringers have now visited at least eight times in the last three months. If not nine! That, by my simple maths, is not fortnightly. It is too often.
Poecile, As I am fairly new to this I do not know what is regarded as an active time of year. Were I to guess however I don`t think I would plump for the last week in October through to the third week in January as being that active. At least not with having made a possible eight visits previously !
Mark, Is it possible to find out if this is a CES site ?
The Firecrest, It is not the ringing but the regularity of the ringing.
Steve, I suspect that the feeding station is there to feed the birds. It is a fairly small orchard and full of birds albeit only about five or six different species with the odd surprise.

dbradnum · Jan 21, 2007

I agree with what Poecile said in post #8.... have you considered actually talking to the ringers, and raising your concerns?

Also, Bough Beech has got a visitor centre if I remember rightly, so why not ask in there?

JohnZ · Jan 21, 2007

If you look at the bumph for Bough Beech I believe it says that the Visitor Centre is open from April - October. Amazingly though it was open today ! However I did not ask. The reason being that I could not believe that they had turned up yet again.
I can have no complaints about the behaviour of the ringers as they are normally apologetic for their activities and, I suspect, realise that they are possibly not welcome on a, rare as hens teeth, sunny Sunday morning.
I think my best course of action would be to contact the BTO and ask them if Bough Beech is a CES. If it is then I will know to go elsewhere on Sundays.

Rich Facey · Jan 22, 2007

However I did not ask. The reason being that I could not believe that they had turned up yet again.

If you need/want to find out why they were there so often surely this was a perfect time to ask?

ringing is carried out just for the sake of rather than scientific reason

As all data gathered from ringing ends up in a central database and is used by the BTO and other organisations all ringing is for scientific reasons and doesn't take place "for the sake of it".

dbradnum · Jan 22, 2007

JohnZ said:
If you look at the bumph for Bough Beech I believe it says that the Visitor Centre is open from April - October. Amazingly though it was open today ! However I did not ask. The reason being that I could not believe that they had turned up yet again.
I can have no complaints about the behaviour of the ringers as they are normally apologetic for their activities and, I suspect, realise that they are possibly not welcome on a, rare as hens teeth, sunny Sunday morning.
I think my best course of action would be to contact the BTO and ask them if Bough Beech is a CES. If it is then I will know to go elsewhere on Sundays.

I have to confess I don't understand this: people were available in the visitor centre, and the ringers were apparently on hand as well, but yet you spoke to none of them and prefer to post on a public forum, or to go over the ringers' heads to the BTO?

If you suspect they realise that they're not welcome, why not take this up with the ringers directly? If they are indeed apologetic, then surely you've got an opportunity to seek a compromise to meet everyone's wishes?

By the way, this isn't just a reflection on you, John: it simply amazes me how many times people on BF complain about something, or question something, without actually speaking to those who are clearly better placed to comment.

tom24 · Jan 23, 2007

It's an obligation of being a ringer to explain the purpose of their activities to interested bystanders...just ask! They won't bite,good public relations are needed for the scheme to continue.

JohnZ · Jan 23, 2007

Please read my original post and post 15. The original post asks about the regularity of ringing and post 15 says that the ringers are well mannered and possibly apologetic due to their presence.
The reason I did not speak to the ringers is that I was spitting blood, angry, and I may well have started an argument and consequently been rude to them. They are after all only doing a job. It is the regularity of their visits to Bough Beech that surprises me. I have seen them before, the same ringers, at Sevenoaks but only twice in the past 9 months. Being a much larger reserve it is obviously a lot more difficult for them so.............Lets go to Bough Beech again !
David, I have not gone over their heads I have simply asked the BTO for confirmation as to whether Bough Beech is a CES. If/when they confirm, either way, then I will know whether to steer clear of Bough Beech. It would be pointless taking it up with the ringers directly as they are there and set up. I do not think they are likely to pack up and go due to me whingeing at them. A compromise ? I cannot think of one to be honest. Perhaps they could post up a message informing everybody when they will be there ?

dbradnum · Jan 23, 2007

JohnZ said:
A compromise ? I cannot think of one to be honest. Perhaps they could post up a message informing everybody when they will be there ?

Yep, certainly, or perhaps they could:

ring at an alternative part of the site where visitors will be less impacted (second feeding station?)
ring there less often (depends if it's a CES, but they'll be able to talk about this)
ring at a different time of day when less visitors will be around
invite you along to see why they see their activity as useful and worthy of some disruption to people like yourself. As tom has just said, the ringers' manual does say they should engage with the public and other birders where appropriate to allay people's concerns.

For all you know, there may be a number of other people who have approached them suggesting they change their activities, so adding your feelings may make a difference. You assume that "it would be pointless", and "I do not think it is likely".... but who knows?

Bottom line: if you don't ask, you don't get!

How often ? (1 Viewer)

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