Actually, I was responding to the original poster and I guess it depends on where you are located. I usually get one or two hummers for the entire season-so buying a premade mix, without the dye, is very affordable up here in northern MA. Last night we had a frost, there aren't many flowers out, the season is very short, and we only get hummers for about 2 months. They eventually turn to the daylilies, and other flowers for nectar, instead of the sugar water, and then migrate back south, so I probably spend about $6.00 total for the entire summer on premade mix! We only get ruby-throats, and seem to be right around the line where they don't migrate any further North, so there isn't a huge hummer population here. Enjoy your multitude of hummers! I was actually very surprised to see one, this morning, since they usually don't show up until it is much warmer out.
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Instant nectar mix ? (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Cris
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Tz'unun
Featherless Biped
I'm still unclear on why you would want to do this. There are absolutely no advantages: it's far more expensive than plain white sugar, wastefully packaged, and - bottom line - no better for the birds even without the dye (and may be worse, depending on what else is in it). Based on what you currently pay for the commercial stuff, an entire season's worth of sugar is going to cost you less than a dollar, maybe even less than 50 cents. For more on this issue, please read message #32 in this thread.
humminbird
Well-known member
I have to concur with Sheri. If you are fortunate enough to live in a place where some of this stuff is sold without the red food color, and many of us can not find it, it is still going to be far more expensive than it is worth. Then when one considers all the "additives" that are supposed to benefit the birds but actually pass right through the birds, and in some cases it does not even provide the basics needed to make it (some have seen packages that say "just add sugar and water, what is in the package then?) it really makes more sense to make your own. Very easy, materials are available in every kitchen, and far more healthy for the birds.
Mark
Bastrop, TX
Mark
Bastrop, TX
I'm new here as a poster, although I've been an occasional lurker for some time.
I hope no one minds my resurrecting this thread, but a few days ago, I did a Google search on the subject since I'd recently decided that I could mix sugar and water better than the merchandisers and for a lot less money.
I suspect there must be thousands of hits on the subject of Hummingbird nectar concentrations experiments. I didn't read through all them, and quite a few of them were written by Professors of Biology. However, here's what I got from some of them:
Using a multitude of concentrations, from 10% up to 70%, the one preferred by the greatest number of Hummers was around 50%. When the choices were narrowed to several selections within a narrower concentration range, the Hummers didn't seem to be able to distinguish between, let's say, 25% and 30%.
The main observed difference from the different concentrations was that the hummers visited less often if they we getting the higher concentrations. And, there was no change in the territorial-ism of the males based on concentration or reasonable distance changes between feeders. Territorial-ism seems to have more to do with specific geographical boundaries rather food supplies.
And, since I've gone to my own mix, without the dye, but with a slightly higher concentration, I think I'm getting more hummers that are probably feeding less often. Such is life.
Bob
PS: The larger type is easier to read beyond age 60 :brains: .
I hope no one minds my resurrecting this thread, but a few days ago, I did a Google search on the subject since I'd recently decided that I could mix sugar and water better than the merchandisers and for a lot less money.
I suspect there must be thousands of hits on the subject of Hummingbird nectar concentrations experiments. I didn't read through all them, and quite a few of them were written by Professors of Biology. However, here's what I got from some of them:
Using a multitude of concentrations, from 10% up to 70%, the one preferred by the greatest number of Hummers was around 50%. When the choices were narrowed to several selections within a narrower concentration range, the Hummers didn't seem to be able to distinguish between, let's say, 25% and 30%.
The main observed difference from the different concentrations was that the hummers visited less often if they we getting the higher concentrations. And, there was no change in the territorial-ism of the males based on concentration or reasonable distance changes between feeders. Territorial-ism seems to have more to do with specific geographical boundaries rather food supplies.
And, since I've gone to my own mix, without the dye, but with a slightly higher concentration, I think I'm getting more hummers that are probably feeding less often. Such is life.
Bob
PS: The larger type is easier to read beyond age 60 :brains: .
Hi Beach Bum. I see this is your first post so a warm welcome to you from those of us on staff here at BirdForum :t:
I have always used the generally accepted mixture of one part sugar to 4 parts water. I can't put my hands on where the article is at the moment but it is again, generally accepted that the one part sugar to 4 parts water echos the nectar in flowers that they feed from.
Hope you enjoy your time here.
I have always used the generally accepted mixture of one part sugar to 4 parts water. I can't put my hands on where the article is at the moment but it is again, generally accepted that the one part sugar to 4 parts water echos the nectar in flowers that they feed from.
Hope you enjoy your time here.
Curtis Croulet
Well-known member
Well, it's my understanding that sugar concentration in hummer-attractive flowers varies a lot, and it often exceeds the "standard" 1:4 sugar-water mix. Among the considerations here are economy (you don't want to use more sugar than necessary) balanced against nectar sufficiently interesting to invite return visits. Concentrations as high as 1:1 (i.e., 50% sugar) are probably not the threat to hummingbird-dom that they have sometimes been portrayed to be, but they're not necessary, either. I know of experts who go to 1:3 in cold-weather situations, but -- AFAIK -- most use and recommend 1:4 most of the time. You don't have to be anal about getting it exactly on-the-nose. A reasonable guess is fine. The people I personally know who have the most birds use 1:4 all the time. Location is the biggest part of this. The purest, most-precisely concocted nectar in the most hummer-friendly feeder will not achieve much in a poor location. Other than moving, there's not much you can do about it.
humminbird
Well-known member
Well said Curtis. Since it has been analyzed to contain as much as 25 mg of sugar, I am sure that trumpet creeper has a far higher concentration than the 4:1 (20%) people often urge (including yours truly). It is not essential to be "right on" with the concentration - I know people that are using as weak a solution as 8:1. This is, in my opinion, more of a threat to the birds than would be a 2:1 or even 1:1 mix, since the birds have to feed more often and are at an increased risk of starvation.
So where does the 4:1 come from? My understanding is that it is a close (notice not an exact) match for an average of commonly used hummingbird plants. Note, if trumpet creeper is a 2:1 or higher mix then some of these plants must be a very weak mix as well. People like a "recipe" that is easy to use and remember. The 4:1 fills that niche nicely.
So where does the 4:1 come from? My understanding is that it is a close (notice not an exact) match for an average of commonly used hummingbird plants. Note, if trumpet creeper is a 2:1 or higher mix then some of these plants must be a very weak mix as well. People like a "recipe" that is easy to use and remember. The 4:1 fills that niche nicely.
Thanks for the responses.
What you've said is pretty much what I got from the various articles I found. And my Google search kind of went away from the normal amateur bird watching group which do seem to rely on the 4:1 thing, which is what I've always followed.
As I recall, my Google search title was "Hummingbird Nectar Concentration Experiments", or two or three variations on that title. Needless to say, most of the hits I got were University studies done in various biology departments across the country. Some were far to ponderous to be useful, but several of them were quite readable and helpful. And most of them worked very hard to eliminate all other variables from the experiments. An interesting way to waste a Sunday afternoon.
Bob
What you've said is pretty much what I got from the various articles I found. And my Google search kind of went away from the normal amateur bird watching group which do seem to rely on the 4:1 thing, which is what I've always followed.
As I recall, my Google search title was "Hummingbird Nectar Concentration Experiments", or two or three variations on that title. Needless to say, most of the hits I got were University studies done in various biology departments across the country. Some were far to ponderous to be useful, but several of them were quite readable and helpful. And most of them worked very hard to eliminate all other variables from the experiments. An interesting way to waste a Sunday afternoon.
Bob
Tz'unun
Featherless Biped
Hi, Bob,
It looks like you might have read at least one of these articles:
Stromberg , Mark R. and Peter B. Johnsen. 1990. Hummingbird Sweetness Preferences: Taste or Viscosity? Condor 92: 606-612.
Blem, Charle R., Leann B. Blem, Joel Felix, and Jennifer Van Gelder. 2000. Rufous Hummingbird Sucrose Preference: Precision of Selection Varies with Concentration. Condor 102: 235-238.
These articles are very misleading and hard to compare with others because of the weird way that the authors figured their concentrations. The standard way of expressing sugar concentrations in nectar is by the weight of the sugar as a percentage of the weight of the solution. Using this method, you'd make a 50% sugar solution by adding 50 grams of sugar to 50 grams water, resulting in 100 grams of solution of which 50 grams is sugar. According to the "Methods" sections of these articles, the authors mixed solutions by combining X grams of sugar with 100 milliliters of water, which were then designated as "X%" concentration (1 ml water weighs 1 gram). At lower concentrations, this calculation is only a little lower than the standard expression, but the higher you go the farther apart they get!
If we use the standard calculation on the solutions described in the articles, a "10%" solution - 10 g of sugar added to 100 ml of water - contains only about 9.1% sugar by weight. The highest concentration offered in the first study, "40%", is really only 28.6% sugar, and the "70%" solution in the second study is only 41% sugar.
Various studies have found that the nectar of dozens of species of hummingbird-pollinated flowers ranges from less than 5% sugars by weight to nearly 55%, with the middle of the bell curve falling in the range of 20 to 25% - somewhere between 4:1 and 3:1 by volume. Various studies have found that the plants are apparently being a bit stingy, and that hummingbirds actually prefer slightly sweeter nectar than they usually get. If the authors' descriptions of their methods are accurate (and there's no reason to assume that they're not), it shouldn't come as any surprise that the "50%" solution - about 33.3% sugar by weight, a bit higher than the middle of the natural-nectar bell curve - was the most favored.
FWIW, I base my own feeder solutions on the middle of that natural-nectar bell curve, using 4:1 (about 18%) during hot and/or dry periods and 3:1 (about 23%) during migration and winter.
It looks like you might have read at least one of these articles:
Stromberg , Mark R. and Peter B. Johnsen. 1990. Hummingbird Sweetness Preferences: Taste or Viscosity? Condor 92: 606-612.
Blem, Charle R., Leann B. Blem, Joel Felix, and Jennifer Van Gelder. 2000. Rufous Hummingbird Sucrose Preference: Precision of Selection Varies with Concentration. Condor 102: 235-238.
These articles are very misleading and hard to compare with others because of the weird way that the authors figured their concentrations. The standard way of expressing sugar concentrations in nectar is by the weight of the sugar as a percentage of the weight of the solution. Using this method, you'd make a 50% sugar solution by adding 50 grams of sugar to 50 grams water, resulting in 100 grams of solution of which 50 grams is sugar. According to the "Methods" sections of these articles, the authors mixed solutions by combining X grams of sugar with 100 milliliters of water, which were then designated as "X%" concentration (1 ml water weighs 1 gram). At lower concentrations, this calculation is only a little lower than the standard expression, but the higher you go the farther apart they get!
If we use the standard calculation on the solutions described in the articles, a "10%" solution - 10 g of sugar added to 100 ml of water - contains only about 9.1% sugar by weight. The highest concentration offered in the first study, "40%", is really only 28.6% sugar, and the "70%" solution in the second study is only 41% sugar.
Various studies have found that the nectar of dozens of species of hummingbird-pollinated flowers ranges from less than 5% sugars by weight to nearly 55%, with the middle of the bell curve falling in the range of 20 to 25% - somewhere between 4:1 and 3:1 by volume. Various studies have found that the plants are apparently being a bit stingy, and that hummingbirds actually prefer slightly sweeter nectar than they usually get. If the authors' descriptions of their methods are accurate (and there's no reason to assume that they're not), it shouldn't come as any surprise that the "50%" solution - about 33.3% sugar by weight, a bit higher than the middle of the natural-nectar bell curve - was the most favored.
FWIW, I base my own feeder solutions on the middle of that natural-nectar bell curve, using 4:1 (about 18%) during hot and/or dry periods and 3:1 (about 23%) during migration and winter.
Curtis Croulet
Well-known member
I'd suggest that evolution has led hummingbirds to seek the sweetest nectar possible (maximum result for effort expended), but evolution never expected them to find unlimited quantities of the stuff. We like fat and sweets, but in the primeval world such things would have been rare and the result of much hunting or luck.
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I'm pretty sure one of the authors I read was Stromberg. But the best paper I recall was written by a couple of professors at, I believe, a university in Virginia. I should have printed it out. Anyway, you're right about how one measures the sugar and water. I doubt there's much uniformity about it but, fortunately, the little Hummers seem to be pretty adaptable.
And Curtis, I'm sure you're right that the hummingbirds had to work a lot harder before humans discovered how much fun they are to watch. Right now, I've got three feeders up and next spring, I think I'll add a forth. :t:
Bob
And Curtis, I'm sure you're right that the hummingbirds had to work a lot harder before humans discovered how much fun they are to watch. Right now, I've got three feeders up and next spring, I think I'll add a forth. :t:
Bob
Incidentally, I went to your website and read your article about feeding hummers. I was in the local wild bird shop this afternoon and noticed they had clear Hummingbird nectar there. I didn't notice whether they had the colored stuff or not.
However, it seems if a person realizes that the red dye stuff is bad, why bother buying a bottle of pre-mixed sugar-water when it's so easy to mix at home? And so much cheaper.
Bob
However, it seems if a person realizes that the red dye stuff is bad, why bother buying a bottle of pre-mixed sugar-water when it's so easy to mix at home? And so much cheaper.
Bob
Tz'unun
Featherless Biped
Beach Bum said:
That's the $64,000 question, ain't it? I think it's because aggressive marketing by manufacturers and retailers has convinced us that what we make at home can't possibly be as good as what we buy in a store. Sometimes that's true, but this is one of many cases where it's definitely not. But the companies that market that junk are getting rich off gullible folks.
"Designer water" is another example of how marketing has manipulated us consumers, but ironically bottled water is more likely to improve the quality of your hummingbird feeder solution than prepackaged "instant nectar."
Curtis Croulet
Well-known member
Tz'unun, you and I saw, in that other forum that we deserted last year, instances of people coming in with the health-food mentality, the idea that sugar water is "junk food" (like a diet of Cokes for us), that it promotes diabetes in hummingbirds, and that hummers hooked on it will not get necessary nutrients -- unless we intervene and provide it for them. The purveyors of store-bought nectar prey on and take advantage of these misconceptions.
Tz'unun
Featherless Biped
That they do. What I find mystifying is that none of the manufacturers has made a real effort to produce and market an "instant nectar" based on the composition of real nectar. Instead, in a product whose package claims that it "duplicates as closely as possible the natural nectar derived from flowers," we get tartaric acid, sodium benzoate, and artificial food coloring [Red #40] and flavorings - none of which occur in natural nectar.Curtis Croulet said:
The ingredients list of "Natural Springs Nectar" - one of the "just add sugar" products - is longer and scarier, and their marketing tactics - as Curtis knows - are downright offensive. Their products carry the message "As Advertised in Audubon Magazine!" as though this constitutes some sort of endorsement. Even worse, their packages recommend against feeding sugar water to hummingbirds, quoting John James Audubon lamenting the short lives of CAPTIVE hummingbirds fed only a sugar or honey solution. Gee, I guess they couldn't get anyone who's been dead for less than 150 years to weigh in on the subject! Someone at the company obviously realized that the Audubon name provides instant credibility in the minds of many naïve bird lovers, and they've been taking shameless advantage of that fact.
In theory, a base of mineral-enriched water to which you add sugar is a good idea, given that the quality of tap water varies much more than that of table sugar, but Natural Springs goes way overboard with artificial coloring, vitamins, and preservatives in an attempt to preserve the vitamins. If you really want to pay close to six bucks a gallon and still have to supply the sugar, you might as well just make your feeder solution with Perrier or Evian - at least it doesn't have dye or preservatives. On the other hand, if you really want to pay six bucks a pound for a "just add water" product, go to the gourmet grocery and buy superfine baking sugar. Better yet, add a couple of pounds of gourmet sugar to a gallon of designer water - you'll get a little over a gallon of primo feeder solution for only about $18!
While we're on the subject of nectar, I've heard two theories on when to bring in the feeders and store them. One person on one of the forums said feed them until they decide on their own to leave. Another person said I should bring the feeders in when I think it's too cold for them and force them to leave.
I've tried it both ways, but I'm inclined to believe the Hummers know better than I as to when they're ready to go.
Thoughts?
Bob
I've tried it both ways, but I'm inclined to believe the Hummers know better than I as to when they're ready to go.
Thoughts?
Bob
humminbird
Well-known member
Beach Bum said:
IMHO, PLEASE leave the feeders up as long as birds are there. The nonsense that a feeder can keep a healthy bird from migrating goes against everything we observe in our own gardens every fall - our feeders are up and yet thousands of birds migrate anyway.
Mark
craig whitmore
Well-known member
hi friends: Isn't it amazing this thread has been running for almost a year and a half. May I throw in a couple of observations. Manufacturers of fishing lures don't make them to attract fish, fish have no purchasing power. They make them to attract fishermen. The corollary---manufactures of commercial nectars make them to attract birders, not hummingbirds. I have been feeding 4 to 1 by volume for over 50 years, and guess what, have not had a single complaint. One trick I stumbled on while feeding down in Mexico in Baja California, was to place a hollowed orange peel under the feeder, keep it moist and in a few days, lo and behold, a colony of drosophilae.
When the birds come in to feed the air from their wings stirs up the fruit flies, and you will be treated to hawking right in front of your eyes. We all have observed how territorial these rascals can be. Location, location, location. If the feeder is placed so there is a protected perch a few yards from the feeder, they will hang out there to protect their territory.
Off thread---Mr Temecula. If you are still on board. re: that remarkable picture you posted some time ago of dozens of rufous at your feeders during migration. Do you get them both spring and fall? I get a few here in the southern Cascades in the spring, not in the fall. Read somewhere that fall migration is east of The Sierras. What's your take.
Craig :hi:
When the birds come in to feed the air from their wings stirs up the fruit flies, and you will be treated to hawking right in front of your eyes. We all have observed how territorial these rascals can be. Location, location, location. If the feeder is placed so there is a protected perch a few yards from the feeder, they will hang out there to protect their territory.
Off thread---Mr Temecula. If you are still on board. re: that remarkable picture you posted some time ago of dozens of rufous at your feeders during migration. Do you get them both spring and fall? I get a few here in the southern Cascades in the spring, not in the fall. Read somewhere that fall migration is east of The Sierras. What's your take.
Craig :hi:
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humminbird
Well-known member
craig whitmore said:
That is my understanding Craig. We get them here in Central Texas in the fall and winter - very few after February.
Mark
