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HBWAlive Key; mission accomplished or mission impossible?

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Old Wednesday 17th April 2019, 11:17   #76
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Thus maronata (based on the subsequent correction by its very author) would seem to be be a misspelling of macronota...?
It seems so, but perhaps an edit by John Gray? Maronata is odd, maybe the Gray brothers assumed he meant long-mark versus something to do with marone-backed? I prefer a connection to the obvious color of the birds. It would be nice to see drawings 642-4. Hodgson sent a very much marked up version of the 1863 second edition version of his catalogue to naturalists around the world.
https://books.google.com/books?id=dh...gbs_navlinks_s . BHL and others do not consider Hodgson the author of the first catalogue but either the British Museum or one of the Gray brothers. Of course George Gray was the editor of the 1844 maronata name article.
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Old Wednesday 17th April 2019, 12:08   #77
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The FAO explains Marron =chestnut.
The difference between chestnut and marron has been a subject of discussion especially at commercial level. Often marron is used to define very large chestnuts or, as in the case of the French, used to classify chestnuts which do not have signs of episperm intrusion (pellicle which covers the seed) in the kernel or which have a low division percentage (<12 percent).

However these basic assumptions do not have any biological basis and tend to cause confusion amongst chestnut wholesalers, traders and consumers.

In Italy marron means a particular Castanea sativa cultivar of excellent quality. Of oblong shape, with a reddish coloured epicarp (skin) that is shiny with dense, often raised stripes and small semi rectangular shaped hilar scar. Large sized marrons are not divided, have a sweet flavour, with the kernel itself free of hollows and easily separable from the episperm
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Old Wednesday 17th April 2019, 12:22   #78
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Maronata is odd, maybe the Gray brothers assumed he meant long-mark versus something to do with marone-backed?
In principle nota (a mark in Latin) should not end up combined with μακρός (long/large in Greek) in a single word. In names of Greek derivation ending in -notus, -a, -um (leuconotus, chloronota, etc.), the second part of the name is normally νῶτον (the back in Greek). What macronota ('long-backed' / 'big-backed') would refer to precisely in the case of a pond heron is not really clear to me, however...

Nobody else than Hodgson seems to have ever used that word to denote a bird. In addition to the heron, Hodgson 1844 also called a pigeon "Ptilonopus macronotus"; in 1846, he (or Gray) placed this name in the synonymy of Treron sphenura (now Treron sphenurus). It's not much clearer to me in what sense this other species might be said to be 'long-backed' or 'big-backed'. However, somewhat intriguingly, that species has the shoulders and, to some extant, the upper mantle purplish, so that "maroon-backed" might in fact arguably apply to it as well...
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Old Wednesday 17th April 2019, 13:25   #79
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The FAO explains Marron =chestnut.
The difference between chestnut and marron has been a subject of discussion especially at commercial level. Often marron is used to define very large chestnuts or, as in the case of the French, used to classify chestnuts which do not have signs of episperm intrusion (pellicle which covers the seed) in the kernel or which have a low division percentage (<12 percent).

However these basic assumptions do not have any biological basis and tend to cause confusion amongst chestnut wholesalers, traders and consumers.

In Italy marron means a particular Castanea sativa cultivar of excellent quality. Of oblong shape, with a reddish coloured epicarp (skin) that is shiny with dense, often raised stripes and small semi rectangular shaped hilar scar. Large sized marrons are not divided, have a sweet flavour, with the kernel itself free of hollows and easily separable from the episperm
In my local Belgian French, except in a culinary context, I usually call the fruit of Castanea sativa châtaigne, and use marron exclusively for the fruit of Aesculus hippocastanum. Once cooked, châtaignes are called marrons, however -- thus we have confit de marrons, dinde aux marrons, marrons glacés, etc. -- all of which are prepared using châtaignes; "real" marrons (horse chestnuts) are not good to eat at all.

Wiktionary suggests Engl. maroon < French marron < Italian marrone < Byzantine Greek μάραον. Thus something like "maraonotus" for maroon-backed might in principle be conceivable, I guess.

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Old Wednesday 17th April 2019, 17:15   #80
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Hodgson went to study at Haileybury and showed an aptitude for languages. An early influence was Thomas Malthus who was a family friend and a staff member at Hailebury. But he left for India at 17. So he was not a physician or a professor with more studies. He often complained he did not have much ornithology works to refer to out in India. Maroon backed makes sense. I have not eaten breakfast so the confit de marrons, dinde aux marrons, marrons glacés made me drool.
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Old Wednesday 17th April 2019, 18:05   #81
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Having eaten I see that left to his own devices Hodgson would have named the pigeon maroon-backed. This supports the inference that the 1846 macronota for the Indian Pond Heron was not from Hodgson's hand.
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Old Thursday 18th April 2019, 08:46   #82
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I apparently forgot to mark one in blue, back in Post #19 ... (thought it sounded familiar);

kot, as in "Pica pica kot" GAVRILENKO 1929, was earlier dealt with; here and here.

/B
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Old Thursday 18th April 2019, 12:29   #83
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I am just curious. Why is there still some doubt in the key that martini is for this guy?

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Originally Posted by l_raty View Post
Jacques-Abel Martin, 8 Jan 1776 in Bellême, Orne - 22 Oct 1863, same place.
He was in close contact with Josse Hardy, which makes him, at the very least, a promising lead.
Or is it because there is no link to Martin in Yekaterinburg? I personally think it is the same person and/or wrongly associated with this place. But I have no final evidence. But Laurents explanaition sounds logic.
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Old Thursday 18th April 2019, 13:00   #84
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Jacques Abel Martin seems never to have left France, and I have difficulty reconciling him with the Russian professor and oologist.
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Old Thursday 18th April 2019, 13:31   #85
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Jacques Abel Martin seems never to have left France, and I have difficulty reconciling him with the Russian professor and oologist.
I also have difficulty reconciling the idea of a guy collecting birds in the Urals to send them to Paris and London (i.e., not Moscow or St. Petersburg), and whose name ended up cited as 'Martin' in Latin characters in a Russian paper written in Cyrillic, with any Russian professor...
This is admittedly no evidence that he and Abel Martin were the same person, though.

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Old Thursday 18th April 2019, 13:35   #86
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But there is a clear link to Jacques Josse Hardy (1798-1863). And as in the key....

Quote:
BUTEO TACHARDUS a. martini, Hardy." (Parzudaki 1856, Cat. Oiseaux d'Europe, 2); "1. Buteo martini, Hardy, qui vit dans le gouvernement de Perm." (Bonaparte 1857, Rev. Mag. Zool., sér. 2, IX, 136)
I do not see any hint that the bird came into Hardys hands from a Professor of a non-existing university in Екатеринбу́рг (at that time). Somehow I anyway have the feeling there have been things mixed up. But I may wrong.
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Old Friday 19th April 2019, 04:03   #87
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Jacques Abel Martin seems never to have left France, and I have difficulty reconciling him with the Russian professor and oologist.
Quote:
Somehow I anyway have the feeling there have been things mixed up.
My hunch is that Martin in Urals, Perm was an adult male relative (brother cousin) of J-A Martin from France who was teaching miners chemistry in Екатеринбу́рг. And since he had contacts with natural history people in France he sent them specimens. ?? I have no proof.
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Old Friday 19th April 2019, 09:38   #88
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It might be worth to check Sabanäeff in context with Martin here.

Quote:
Sabanäeff includes the Ring-Ouzel in his list of birds found in the Ural, on the authority of M. Martin, who procured it at the Sysertsky mines; but Sabanäeff himself never met with it.
Or here...

Quote:
In the Ural district, he adds, M. Martin obtained three of four examples in the Poleffskaya Dacha, on the western slope, but it is rare;
..and here here...

Quote:
Mr. Sabanäeff did not himself meet with it in the Ural, but says that Mr. Martin observed it near the Keshtemsky Zavod, and he thinks that it may range far north as 57° N. lat.
I am wondering if Philipp Leopold Martin may have visited the Ural? He wrote in his Die Praxis der Naturgeschichte here:

Quote:
Unmittelbar an den Rennthierpark grenzt das asiatische Gebiet, das aber hier nicht durch einen mächtigen Gebirgswall wie der Ural von Europa getrennt ist, denn um diesen naturgetreu darzustellen, fehlt es uns zu sehr an den reichen Platin-, Gold- und anderen Minen, als dass wir solches Wagniss begehen können.

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Old Friday 19th April 2019, 10:04   #89
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Of course, "Sabanäeff" is Леонид Павлович Сабанеев (pre-reform spelling: "Сабанѣевъ"), the author of the footnote you made me translate above (title page: https://biodiversitylibrary.org/page/44524150 ; here as "Леонида Сабанѣева" -- genitive case indicating authorship).
But indeed he may have published other things mentioning Martin.

FWIW, the use of "M. Martin", rather than "Mr. Martin", in your quotes, to me, strongly suggests that Dresser thought that Martin was a French. (For German/Austrian people, Dresser used "Herr" -- "Herr von Pelzeln", "Herr A. von Homeyer", "Herr W. Schlütter", etc.)

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Old Friday 19th April 2019, 10:57   #90
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I am wondering if Philipp Leopold Martin may have visited the Ural? He wrote in his Die Praxis der Naturgeschichte here:
And here p. 41 we can read:

Quote:
1851 Begleitung von Kazimierz Graf Wodzicki (var. Schreibweisen: Wodzicky oder Wodziecky) auf dessen Jagd- und Sammelreise nach Osteuropa (u.a nach Galizien).
I assume Kazimierz Wodzicki (1816-1889).

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Old Friday 19th April 2019, 11:19   #91
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Also Menzbir in Ibis 1884 https://biodiversitylibrary.org/page/8526650, on Aquila imperialis (i.e., A. heliaca):
Quote:
In the Ural Mountains this bird is found as far north as lat. 56°, breeding (on the authority of Mr. Martin) in the vicinity of Ekaterinburg.

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Old Friday 19th April 2019, 11:45   #92
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An English traslation of a Russian language paper by Sabanäeff which mentions M. Martin:
https://www.biodiversitylibrary.org/...e/298/mode/1up .
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Old Friday 19th April 2019, 13:32   #93
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An English traslation of a Russian language paper by Sabanäeff which mentions M. Martin:
https://www.biodiversitylibrary.org/...e/298/mode/1up .
Now, this is becoming a bit strange...
Quote:
"The Avi-fauna of the Ural," translated from the Russian* of Leonida Sabanäeff, by Mr F. C. Craemers, and communicated by Mr John A. Harvie-Brown, F.Z.S., M.B.O.U.
The following translation from the Russian was prepared for the private use of Mr H. E. Dresser, for quotation in his work on the "Birds of Europe" ; and for Mr Henry Seebohm. To these gentlemen the members of the Society are indebted for liberally placing the MS. at their disposal. As it is the only full and connected account we have of the birds of the district, it cannot fail to have considerable interest to students of Geographical Distribution. — J. A. H.-B.
________
* "Preavaritelnoi Oscherk Faunoi Posvonoschnoech Slednyago OOrala," by Leonida Sabanäeff (Bull. Mosc. xlii., 1870, pp. 185-197).
The reference cited in the footnote is still that of the work with the first footnote that mentioned Martin -- so it may look like we are running in circles. However, the title, "предварительный очеркъ - фауны позвоночныхъ средняго Урала", means "preliminary essay - the fauna of vertebrates of middle Ural", which is quite different from "The Avi-fauna of the Ural"; the text is about birds only while, in the "original", the info about birds is heavily mixed with info on mammals, with some additions about reptiles and fishes; the text follows a systematic sequence while the "original" does not; and it evidently includes a lot of details that are completely absent from the "original"...

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Old Friday 19th April 2019, 15:50   #94
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Harvie Brown makes a few comments:
https://www.biodiversitylibrary.org/...e/197/mode/1up .
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Old Friday 19th April 2019, 22:09   #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by l_raty View Post
Now, this is becoming a bit strange...
This is what was translated:

Сабанѣевъ Л [Sabaneev L]. 1871. Каталогъ звѣрей, птицъ, гадовъ и рыбъ Средняго Урала. [Catalogue of the beasts, birds, reptiles and fishes of Middle Ural.] Bull. Soc. Imp. Nat. Moscou, sér. 4, 20 (2): 210-278.

Bird section: https://biodiversitylibrary.org/page/34418520

(But then the actual original appears in fact extremely close to the translation. I.e., probably no additional info.)
(Perhaps worth mentioning, though: on p. 233, Martin is called "T. Martin". However, chances seem rather high that this was a mere typo for "Г. Martin", where "Г." ("Господин"), would be the Russian equivalent of "Mr.")
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Old Saturday 20th April 2019, 18:32   #96
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The Key: hildamariae
Female eponym; dedication not given (Mathews 1934, Bull. Brit. Ornith. Cl., 55, 24) (subsp. Pogoniulus coryphaea).

Mathews:
“Barbatula hildamariae for B. jacksoni Sclater, 1930, not Sharpe 1897.”
Sclater 1930.
https://www.biodiversitylibrary.org/...ge/48/mode/1up . William Frederick Henry Rosenberg (1868–1957) brought the bird to the attention of Sclater. I think hildamariae is named for a relative of his. Jackson collected it but I could not find a connection to any hilda-marie.
The Key also has “P. c. hildamariae (W. L. Sclater, 1938) – E DRCongo, SW Uganda, “ This must be from W. L. Sclater who finished the deceased Jackson’s The Birds of Kenya colony and the Protectorate of Uganda 1938.
WL Sclater was killed by a V2 in 1944.
No idea what “not Sharpe 1897” means?
edit: Sylvietta whytii jacksoni (Sharpe, 1897) .
Maybe not named for Rosenberg; census Fanny wife daughters Gertrude Gladys Sister in law, Clara
Justin Jansen was here first.
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/inde...topic=216502.0 .
Zoonomen addressed this: Pogoniulus coryphaeus hildamariae Citation
Previously cited as
Pogoniulus coryphaeus hildamariae (Sclater,WL) 1938 BirdsKenyaUganda[Jackson] 2 p.714
As Colin Jones points out (2010.12.04) others have commented that there is no reason that Mathews' proposal of a replacement name for Barbatula jacksoni Sclater, 1930, not Sharpe, 1897 is not valid, as it seems to be held by Peters Checklist VI:47.
2010.12.04
Peters VI p. 47 says Sclater 1938 first validation of nomen nudum. Mathews was nomen nudum?
Zoonomen currently uses Pogoniulus coryphaea hildamariae (Mathews) 1934 BBOC 55 p.24 but shouldn't the author stay as Sclater?
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Old Saturday 20th April 2019, 20:50   #97
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No idea what “not Sharpe 1897” means?
Barbatula jacksoni Sharpe 1897: https://biodiversitylibrary.org/page/32475561
Now Pogoniulus bilineatus jacksoni (Sharpe 1897).

Mathews' name https://biodiversitylibrary.org/page/40498131 seems OK to me as well -- thus Sclater 1938 was presumably a mere subsequent use.

κορυφαία is a noun, thus coryphaea doesn't need to agree in gender with Pogoniulus.

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Old Saturday 20th April 2019, 21:21   #98
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Monsieur Martin in "Buteo martini"

I think I have actually found him!

This said without understanding much of the (French) text below (my blue and bold) ...

Quote:
HARDY Josse (1798-1863) (Bignot 1987) : ses collections d’oiseaux prolongent les activités cynégétiques du jeune Hardy qui, dès 1821, séduit par la beauté de ses victimes, entreprend de les naturaliser. Pour accroître sa collection, il sollicite d’autres chasseurs et des pêcheurs, spécialement ceux qui s’embarquent pour Terre-Neuve et ceux qui partent traquer les baleines en Arctique ou dans les mers du Sud. Il est également en relation suivie avec Edouard Martin, professeur en Russie, à l'Université d'Ekaterinbourg (aujourd'hui Sverdlovsk), qui lui envoie de nombreux sujets provenant de Russie d'Europe, des Monts Oural et des bords du lac Baïkal. Le collectionneur procède également par achats et par échanges. Après 40 années consacrées à sa passion, Hardy a réuni à son domicile, au 32-34 rue Saint Rémy, 1.253 oiseaux naturalisés et 2210 œufs dont un grand nombre sont rares. La richesse et la qualité de ces collections attirent les spécialistes internationaux. Ils y puisent maints renseignements originaux et inédits que l’on retrouve insérés, par exemple, dans les ouvrages classiques de Temminck, de Degland, du prince de Canino, de Lemetteil, et autres. C’est tant mieux car notre collectionneur n’a guère publié qu’un catalogue de ses richesses. Selon ses observations, le recensement des espèces locales s’élève à 264, dont une quarantaine d’inconnues auparavant à Dieppe. Les spécialistes d’aujourd’hui font encore référence à cet inventaire. A la mort de leur rassembleur, les collections ont été achetées par la ville de Dieppe, toutefois en l’absence de conservateur compétent, les oiseaux empaillés ne furent jamais “qu’annexés par exception” au Musée. Après la dernière guerre qui leur fut néfaste, une partie de ce qui restait des oiseaux, et en particulier la pièce la plus rare (Boudier 1950), un magnifique exemplaire du Grand Pingouin (Pinguinus impennis), espèce des mers arctiques éteinte depuis 1844, a été confiée (provisoirement ?) au Musée d’Histoire Naturelle de Rouen.

[From: Les personnages célèbres
de Dieppe et de sa région
depuis l'Antiquité jusqu'à nos jours

(here)]
Who this Edouard Martin was? More than the above? I haven't got a clue!

---

And the synonymity seems to be a real mess! Far, far beyond me ...

Commented by Hartlaub, in 1864 (here), in French., also see pp. 44-45. And listed here, but below "B. desertorum. —DAUD." And by Severtzov 1873, here.

Good luck guys!

Björn
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Old Saturday 20th April 2019, 23:01   #99
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At present I can only find Prof. Edouard Martin (1809-1877) German obstetrician who assisted at the birth (1859) of the future Kaiser Wilhelm II, so I don't think it was him!
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Old Saturday 20th April 2019, 23:55   #100
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Edouard Martin looks right. And it helps explain the T. Martin Laurent found ie Tedouard. Just joking. Thanks Björn I had given up.
On hildamariae Rachel Warren said: "hildamariae—Viridibucco corvphaea hildaniariae Mathews, 1934 . 32
Bull. Br. Orn. CI., 55 : 24.' New name for V. c.jacksoni W. L. Sclater, (^.v.). Peters' assign- ment of Mathews' name to W. L. Sclater (This refers to Sclater 1938?) (Checklist of Birds of the World, 6 (1948) : 47, is untenable; Mathews proposed hildamariae as a new name and was not therefore required to append any
description. See International Code of Zoological Nomenclature,
1961, Article 13 (2) (iii). (Type-specimens of birds in the British Museum)
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